To think Lucy Letby should be made to attend court for the sentencing

[Viviennemary]

I know there are other threads on this terrible case. But I just read she has refused to attend court for the sentencing which is to be on Monday morning. The judge said he does not have the power to force her to attend. Can't see she will ever be allowed out of prison. And rightly so.

Provided there is no legitimate reason she cannot attend, for example health reasons, then the trial would go ahead without her attendance.

A lot of hoops will be jumped through first, but essentially someone can't stop the trial if they choose not to attend, it'll just go ahead in their absence.

It's very rare, but it has happened.

It's the same as the defendants right to not testify.
Letby didn't testify, as is her right. You cannot force a defendant to testify.

I originally thought this. But then someone suggested that the reason she decided not to attend is because she knows the game’s up and she’s not in control any more.

so now I think that refusing to attend is as close to an admission of guilt as we’re likely to get.

it means nothing.

It might not mean ‘nothing’ to the families of the beloved babies she murdered.

I can’t believe some of you would deny the victims families their right to deliver their impact statement, and look her in the eye when she’s sentenced to life for the murder of their children.

The victim impact statement is for the families to be heard by the court, not the accused. You really think she isn’t aware of the impact of killing those babies? She doesn’t care, or she would have plead guilty and saved the families the torment of a trial. All you do by forcing her is create yet another circus which may satisfy some macabre need for the general public but impact the families even more.

The sentence will be what it is, nothing is gained by dragging her back to court.

There would be a lot of discussion. Her lawyers would probay fully encourage her to attend the trial.

The judge would want to know the exact reason why she didn't want to attend the trial.

The thing is. You might be able to force her presence there(actually you can't because it's against the law but let's pretend). What you can't do is "look her in the eye" if she decides to stare at the ceiling or shuts her eyes. You can't gag her because it's against the law so she could be humming,singing, swearing,screaming or worse shout abuse at the parents or about the babies, she could scream her head off and disrupt the whole process and the victim impact statement. She could piss or shit herself or make herself vomit. She could start fighting the guards,flopping all over the place etc.You might be able to guarantee her presence but not her compliance. I don't see how any of those scenarios would be beneficial to the families and anyone attending court.

The most important point, it's probably better that she's not there. Then the focus will be on the babies,their parents, the impact statement,the sentencing and the judge's words. Not about her and what she's wearing and how she looks and how she reacts . She had enough attention.

If I were one of the parents, God forbid, then I wouldn't want to give my victim statement to her. I wouldn't want to look at her and tell her how upset I was. She enjoyed thinking about the pain she's caused when she killed those babies. I wouldn't want her getting off on my pain as well.

There is a Dangerous and Severe Personality Disorder unit at Broadmoor.
Personality disorders are not treatable yet the unit exists.

It's not about Denying, it's more the practically of how to achieve that,

Every murder is an emotive event

there have been other convicted murderers refusing to attend in the last year and their families have been on talking about it

so yes the country can campaign to change laws based on emotive events

I think it’s better for her not to be there. In ‘lesser’ crimes it doesn’t matter so much perhaps but with crimes like this it’s probably for the best for it to stop being about them the minute they’ve been found guilty. Let her lawyer or a court employee tell her her sentence.

*their victims families

Put this demon on a wheeled cart like Hannibal Lector & force her to face the moment of reckoning.

And if she refused to listen to her lawyers and the judge was told that the reason she didn't want to attend her trial was because she 'didn't want to' - what would happen?

What would have happened if she had refused to attend her trial?

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/defendants-refusal-attend-court-0#:~:text=There%20are%20many%20reasons%20why,proven%20or%20claimed%20ill%20health

Where has any family explicitly said they want to see her at sentencing?

People keep going on about the families right to have her in court for sentencing but why does everyone assume that they want her there?

As someone who lost a family member to a drunk driver and attended the subsequent court case I didn't go to the sentencing to look the guy in the face as he was sentenced, I went to court so I could get closure by hearing the sentence read out in court for myself.

The fact he was in the court room actually made it more distressing as every time I looked at him all I was picturing was the family member he had killed and that was with him just sitting there passively in the dock, trying not to make eye contact with anyone in the courtroom. If he had been dragged there kicking, screaming and causing a fuss then it would have made it even more distressing to have to witness.

If he hadn't been there then nothing would have changed for me, other than the fact that as well as feeling justice was served for my family member I would have felt contempt for the man who didn't even have the courage to show up to the sentencing. I would not have been angry or demanding he come to court as tbh the less I had to see his face the better, and his case wasn't splashed all over the newspapers with his photo on all the front pages for me to see wherever I went

It would go ahead in her absence.

It's rare, but it has happened.

In the link posted above it states

1. This includes whether a handcuffing application would be sought or how a non-compliant defendant is to be dealt with at court.

Letby did testify, for a good chunk of time.

So they can certainly 'make her' if they wanted to.

That's why I said

A lot of hoops will be jumped through first

That’s fine for you and for some families that will be what they prefer. Others won’t

The fact remains that the choice should be there for the families impacted.

the mother of Olivia Pratt-Korbel has vocalised her strong desire to change the law

Ah right I missed you saying that.

I imagine they would be encouraged to cite ill health/mental health issues as a 'reason' not to attend, whether true or not, to make life easier for the court - so they wouldn't have to seek a handcuffing application.

But they could 'force' her to attend a trial if they wanted to so they could also 'force' her to attend her sentencing.

If the families want this, it should happen in my opinion.

Her refusal to attend indicates that she doesn't accept she is guilty. I suppose a lot of murderers are like her. I would be more concerned that she will go on to appeal her conviction, thereby causing even more distress for the families.

But why should it be the victims families choice? What of one family wants her there and another doesn't, whose choice gets ignored?

What next will we give the victims family a right to decide in the courtroom regardless of the practicality of enforcement?

Whether or not you agree with a defendant's right not to be present on a moral level, as hard as it might be to take all the emotion and feelings out, just looking at it on a practical level - and not just in this case for Letby but for every case, with every defendant as any rule would have to apply across the board - it is impossible to force a defendant to sit in the courtroom and respect the process if they don't want to.

They will either potentially cause physical harm to themselves and/or others in the course of getting them to the court and between the various places they need to be; cause psychological harm to others who have to deal with dragging prisoners into court on a daily basis and/or those who have to witness their behaviour and listen to them if they start screaming upsetting things in the courtroom etc; cause damage and potentially cause significant delays to the court proceedings if they resist.

All of these things add up to the fact that while we could force defendants into court, on balance it is better to allow a defendant not to attend than force them to do so as that is the safest and most practical option for everyone.

I think it's more traumatising for the families to face this. A worse thing would be her crying having a fit and as parent that has lost their precious baby thinking that you've stolen the baby's future and now you're worried about yours? That's the best case scenario but what will happen is the families will receive no remorse from her, no reaction, nothing which will add more fuel to the fire. Remember these parents have lost their precious babies at first thinking of natural causes and have been living through hell only to find out LL has harmed them which makes it worse and to face her whom shows no remorse will only traumatise them more. To me personally, I think this protects them. The person that has murdered several babies and injured them isn't a sane human being so therefore won't react in a way that will bring closure to the families and will traumatise them more. She's finished now, the focus is on her crime, she has no voice no freedom and no power.