Page 11 | To think Lucy Letby should be made to attend court for the sentencing

Viviennemary · 2023-08-20T21:06:16+00:00

I know there are other threads on this terrible case. But I just read she has refused to attend court for the sentencing which is to be on Monday morning. The judge said he does not have the power to force her to attend. Can't see she will ever be allowed out of prison. And rightly so.

Lwrenagain · 21/08/2023 09:08

Whyohwhywyoming · 21/08/2023 07:44

Would everyone who wants the victim
impact statements broadcast in her cell still want this if they knew she was getting some sort of pleasure from it?

I don't think we (not psychopath baby killers) can comprehend it would bring pleasure, not extreme agony to her to hear it.

But I agree with you, 100% it's very likely she'd love to hear the grief.

Now Thomas cashman who refused, he should have had to hear what he did to little olivia's family. As much as he's a piece of shite who I hope never leaves prison alive, I do believe it would have affected him, he never set out to murder a child, he just didn't let an innocent little girl get in the way of his intended victim.

JanieEyre · 21/08/2023 09:08

Hillcrest2022 · 20/08/2023 23:12

@LaurelandHedgy sadly some people are forgetting that which is the important issue - the awful acts against such vunerable babies and the devastation caused to the families. Apparently her feelings are more important? Well, I won't subscribe to that sorry.

Literally no-one has said that her feelings are more important. How about addressing the points that have actually been made, nor a fictitious one?

Motomum23 · 21/08/2023 09:10

My 16 year old son said this at the verdict. He said it just shows complete lack of respect.... my point was what respect - she murdered their babies. She doesn't respect them. :(

BreatheAndFocus · 21/08/2023 09:12

Insommmmnia · 21/08/2023 08:56

Because if you change a law for one you change it for everyone. Its all very well saying that Letby is a normal sized woman but unless you are suggesting laws that only apply to normal sized women you cannot just think of her.

The largest man to be convicted in recent history in the UK was 43 stone. Whatever you suggest can be applied to Letby would also need to be applied to him.

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To be clear, I do think it should apply to all. In the case of the 43 stone man, it might be that he listens in his cell due to his weight, medical issues and practicality.

Fallingthroughclouds · 21/08/2023 09:13

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 21/08/2023 08:27

I'm someone who has lost a family member to a criminal act, and I still think it's ridiculous to shouting about "forcing" people into the dock.

It's not a "one size fits all" scenario. You might want your perpetrator to be there, but personally I couldn't care less whether mine was or not, in fact, I had no desire whatsoever to ever set eyes on them again once the verdict had been delivered.

My concerns lie in the fact that if people like you get your way, then it's inevitable that sooner rather than later the families of victims are going to be confronted by the sight of the person who murdered or otherwise harmed their loved ones pointing and laughing at them, taunting them, sneering, and generally going out of their way to be as obnoxious and harmful as possible. If you play stupid games with nasty people, then you are going to win stupid prizes.

As you said yourself, stop telling victims and their families what's right for them. Your opinion carries no more weight that anyone else's, so victim or otherwise, you have no right to try and claim ownership over a matter than is of no relevance to you beyond your own individual case.

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She is someone who has been through this, so yes I think her opinion carries more weight, just as I think yours does, even though your views are very different.

People who have experienced this surely have a better understanding over those who are just theorising about how they would feel.

NOELScosmichelicopter · 21/08/2023 09:14

Alexandra2001 · 21/08/2023 08:53

Don't be silly.

What do guards do when a prisoner refuses to leave the court cells to be transferred to prison? or wont return to their cells in a prison? let them stay there??? violent prisoners have always had to be restrained, often using sprays....

As far as i am concerned, its most victims families that want the guilty there.. & if they do, then their wishes are paramount, not what you or i think.

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You do see the difference right? For staff being forced to do something as a last resort (which restraint always should be since people can be seriously injured or die) to protect the safety and security or all involved and the prison..

Compared to risking injury and death to the prisoner and staff to satisfy the calls of public individuals for LL to be forced into court because they want to see her reaction?

You see those 2 things are not the same right?

Poivresel · 21/08/2023 09:15

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thedancingbear · 21/08/2023 09:17

I'm disturbed by the bloodlust that would have Letby hauled to court, possibly literally kicking and screaming.

What she did was appalling. She is also clearly mentally very unwell. She deserves whatever prison sentence she gets, but the law says that is the punishment, and not some additional psychological torture session for the benefit of Sun readers.

Mukey · 21/08/2023 09:19

JanieEyre · 21/08/2023 08:51

She wasn't forced to attend. It was her one and only chance to defend herself, she obviously wanted to attend.

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Shes going to now be forced to go to prison right? I imagine she can't just refuse?

Claricethecat45 · 21/08/2023 09:19

In my view, elective non-attendance at Sentencing, by the convicted party, ought to carry with it, an understanding/acceptance which 'Excludes the future possibility of an Appeal being made or a Re-trial considered' - for example where a miscarriage of justice is later considered/deemed/proposed, or, where any type of 'new evidence' comes to light.

IMO this may be the only type of incentive for LL to decide she will attend, and if this was indeed accepted law, her Barrister would be able to give her his/her professional advice to do so. Obviously, there is no such process or guidelines in place, so it wont happen...but imo, it should!

GlobetrottingPercy · 21/08/2023 09:20

BreatheAndFocus · 21/08/2023 09:12

To be clear, I do think it should apply to all. In the case of the 43 stone man, it might be that he listens in his cell due to his weight, medical issues and practicality.

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So if people are thin, they get hauled to sentencing but if they are fat, they can stay in their cell.

thedancingbear · 21/08/2023 09:22

Claricethecat45 · 21/08/2023 09:19

In my view, elective non-attendance at Sentencing, by the convicted party, ought to carry with it, an understanding/acceptance which 'Excludes the future possibility of an Appeal being made or a Re-trial considered' - for example where a miscarriage of justice is later considered/deemed/proposed, or, where any type of 'new evidence' comes to light.

IMO this may be the only type of incentive for LL to decide she will attend, and if this was indeed accepted law, her Barrister would be able to give her his/her professional advice to do so. Obviously, there is no such process or guidelines in place, so it wont happen...but imo, it should!

So if they are in fact innocent, they should be compelled to turn up to sentencing, but if they did it, they can stay in their cell?

Not thought that one through, have you?

Insommmmnia · 21/08/2023 09:24

Claricethecat45 · 21/08/2023 09:19

In my view, elective non-attendance at Sentencing, by the convicted party, ought to carry with it, an understanding/acceptance which 'Excludes the future possibility of an Appeal being made or a Re-trial considered' - for example where a miscarriage of justice is later considered/deemed/proposed, or, where any type of 'new evidence' comes to light.

IMO this may be the only type of incentive for LL to decide she will attend, and if this was indeed accepted law, her Barrister would be able to give her his/her professional advice to do so. Obviously, there is no such process or guidelines in place, so it wont happen...but imo, it should!

So to be clear you are suggesting that if new evidence came up that could prove someone was innocent they wouldn't be allowed a retrial if they didn't attend their sentencing

Or more worryingly if there was a miscarriage of justice they wouldn't be able to have a retrial.

Really? Is someone attending the sentencing so important that we will keep them in prison even if they are innocent or a miscarriage of justice occurs?

That's alarming.

Iwasafool · 21/08/2023 09:26

SovietSpy · 20/08/2023 22:38

Everything Bellac11 said above. The sort of criminal refusing to attend court has either got nothing to lose (facing a long sentence) or likely to be disruptive.

What could be worse for the victims than having sentencing disrupted by the convicted person shouting or screaming, being abusive or pretending to be ill? The judge will send them down which is what they want and then you’ve just created a circus and the headlines in the papers will be about the disruption not the crime.

Also some cases have started to televise the sentencing (camera just on the judge) so any criminal dragged to court determined to disrupt will know they get a tv audience as well as any shouting would be heard.

What if she starts laughing at the parents, what if a bereaved father breaks down reading his statement and she blows him a kiss, what if she is enjoying their suffering. Lots of ways that could hurt parents. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with her being there.

I think it is easy to feel that she would feel like we would, ashamed, embarrassed, remorseful but if she had that sort of human feeling she wouldn't have done the crimes would she.

Insommmmnia · 21/08/2023 09:26

BreatheAndFocus · 21/08/2023 09:12

To be clear, I do think it should apply to all. In the case of the 43 stone man, it might be that he listens in his cell due to his weight, medical issues and practicality.

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So in which case you are suggesting that mostly women will be made to attend sentencing and mostly men will be able to listen to it in their cells because on average men are heavier than women

Insommmmnia · 21/08/2023 09:27

Mukey · 21/08/2023 09:19

Shes going to now be forced to go to prison right? I imagine she can't just refuse?

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There's a massive difference between asking a member of staff to risk serious injury to take someone to prison and to risk serious injury to take someone to court when they don't even have to be there for justice to be carried out

Insommmmnia · 21/08/2023 09:29

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Or unless they have been impacted by their family being prison officers and becoming injured during the course of their work?

Officers really are the collateral damage no one gives a shit about on this thread aren't they?

DesTeeny · 21/08/2023 09:30

You can't physically force someone to go, that's the end of it. The sentence will remain the same, whether she is there or not.

After with PP that I wouldn't be surprised if she's given a Hospital order rather than a custodial sentence as there's no end date to a Hospital order, she could be detained indefinitely until she was deemed 'suitable' for release.

sixswans · 21/08/2023 09:30

If the families want her to listen to their impact statements then she should be there. She had to attend the whole trial so how is this any different.

blubberyboo · 21/08/2023 09:32

melj1213 · 21/08/2023 00:46

But why should it be the victims families choice? What of one family wants her there and another doesn't, whose choice gets ignored?

What next will we give the victims family a right to decide in the courtroom regardless of the practicality of enforcement?

Whether or not you agree with a defendant's right not to be present on a moral level, as hard as it might be to take all the emotion and feelings out, just looking at it on a practical level - and not just in this case for Letby but for every case, with every defendant as any rule would have to apply across the board - it is impossible to force a defendant to sit in the courtroom and respect the process if they don't want to.

They will either potentially cause physical harm to themselves and/or others in the course of getting them to the court and between the various places they need to be; cause psychological harm to others who have to deal with dragging prisoners into court on a daily basis and/or those who have to witness their behaviour and listen to them if they start screaming upsetting things in the courtroom etc; cause damage and potentially cause significant delays to the court proceedings if they resist.

All of these things add up to the fact that while we could force defendants into court, on balance it is better to allow a defendant not to attend than force them to do so as that is the safest and most practical option for everyone.

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What you are saying is contradictory. You say it’s fine for some families to refuse and be respected but not for other families to expect to have their chance to speak directly to the defendant

If families don’t want to see her they could be accommodated in another way using screens etc

at the end of the day there should be an expectation that the defendant is presented in court to hear their sentencing.

If they choose to disrupt then other methods can be used such as a video link where they cannot be heard by the family

the court should make all reasonable attempts to get them there. To disrupt is contempt of court which For many defendants could result in a harsher sentence.

in a whole of life case they probably won’t care but at least they will have had their own day disrupted and had some shame directed towards them .

NOELScosmichelicopter · 21/08/2023 09:32

AutumnCrow · 21/08/2023 09:07

I might be out of date here, but I believe there are two circumstances in which force-feeding can happen in UK prisons.

In the first, a patient detained under the Mental Health Act can be force-fed if it is believed feeding is necessary to treat their underlying mental disorder.

In the second, which is governed by case law, doctors can force-feed patients if they have become mentally incapacitated and they believe it is in their best interests and will save their life. Doctors hate doing this, and the Secretary of State for Justice (used to be the Home Secretary) is normally advised to obtain a specific court order in the High Court.

Otherwise a prisoner can make an advance declaration to refuse food and water while they have capacity, and force-feeding is thereafter unlawful, even if the prisoner dies.

It's a thorny case-by-case issue.

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No. No physical or psychiatric treatment cannot be forced in prisons unless an immediate emergency with threat to life such as providing wound care to someone who's slit their wrists.

If a prisoner is felt to be suffering from a mental disorder they would need to be assessed, sectioned under 47 or 48 of the mental health act and transferred to a psychiatric hospital before psychiatric treatment can begin. There are seriously psychotically unwell individuals languishing in UK prisons because a bed in a psychiatric hospital is not yet available though they have been assessed and sectioned.

Even after transfer to hospital, physical health treatment can only be forced without consent (unless an emergency) under specific legislation of the MHA if the refuse to eat is a direct result of the mental health condition they are in hospital to be treated for. So Beverly Allitt was NG fed in hospital as she had a diagnosed eating disorder. Ian Brady wS NG fed in hospital as his care team argued his 'hunger strike' was a result of his antisocial PD causing him to use a 'hunger strike' as a means to cause disruption for the staff and unit, disrupt his care and 'challenge authority'.

Had either of them been diagnosed with cancer for jnstance, they could refuse treatment even while sectioned unless the care team could present a case that the refusal was due to their mental disorder, and mental capacity would be assessed as part of that.

JanieEyre · 21/08/2023 09:35

NoTouch · 20/08/2023 23:21

If she wont attend then let the parents go to her cell with the judge and tell her there.

I know that isn't practical either. But I feel so sorry for the parents that she has any control and is able to take away them witnessing justice being served upon her. It will be a big milestone for them in the horrific journey they are still on.

She doesn't have control and I hate the fact that people are trying to wind up the parents into thinking that this gives her any power. The important thing is that she will be told her sentence and she will have to serve every day of it.

If we make a big issue out of trying to force defendants to listen when ultimately it's impossible, we are giving them power. Don't do it.

blubberyboo · 21/08/2023 09:37

LizzieSiddal · 21/08/2023 08:12

It’s my understanding that she will be taken to the court, she just will refuse to enter the court room where the judge and public gallery is. So she’ll be sat somewhere in that building, until the impact statements and sentencing has finished, she’ll then be taken back to prison.

The simplest solution would be for there to be cameras set up in the room so she has to listen to what’s going on in the court. However she may then refuse to get in the van which brought her from the prison, so maybe they would have to set up a room in the prison with linked cameras to the court. But then she may refuse to move into that room. It goes on and on……..

What ever happens she deserves to rot in hell.

This is the most sensible solution.

audio played to wherever she is sitting so that she can hear the impact statements from the families that want to speak to her, and hear her sentence and the judges comments .

audio can be turned off if a particular relative feels uncomfortable with her hearing them

JanieEyre · 21/08/2023 09:38

OhcantthInkofaname · 20/08/2023 23:26

Let the mothers be the officers of the day..

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Let them be kicked, scratched, punched, spat on, screamed and sworn at?

I don't think so.

JanieEyre · 21/08/2023 09:42

Wakintoblueskies · 20/08/2023 23:35

What would have happened if she had refused to attend her trial?

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Why would she refuse to attend? It's her one chance to get out of the situation.

If someone does refuse to attend, ultimately the trial continues without them.