To ask if you think is might be having a bigger impact than I realised

[Blueey]

Or is this just life with children?

I have 2 DCs, 8 and 6.
8yo was always a troubled sleeper and we coslept in the end as the only way to get some rest. Multiple wake ups every night for a really really long time, then DC2 was born and the pattern continued as it does with a newborn, but this time with both kids. However DC2 tended to sleep better than DC1, who was still regularly needing me to sit with him back to sleep multiple times a night at 4/5 years old.

Fast forward to now and I'm still not getting unbroken sleep. The issue is now more my 6yo, he usually wakes up at least once a night but often twice or three times. He will not settle back to sleep in his bed unless I sit with him and I'm so tired I tend to fall asleep curled in a ball at the bottom of his bed, waking up 30 - 60 mins later and returning to my own bed. So it's not uncommon for my night to be:

10pm fall asleep
12am wake up to settle dc2
12.45am wake up on dc2 bed and return to my bed
2.30am wake up to settle dc2
3am wake up on dc2 bed and return to my bed
6.30am up for the day

Sometimes there could be a third wake up in there too.

8yo will sometimes also ask me to help him back to bed if he wakes up but at least that's just tuck in, kiss and go now.

In the 8 years I've been a mum I think I've had very very very few nights of unbroken sleep. Impossible to quantify really but it's really not much. At the end of last year I slept on a mattress in the kids room for 3 months just to get some proper sleep and did actually. So that might have upped my number. It wasn't comfortable though as it was a fold out mattress so my back ached. It seemed to help the wake ups with DC2 for a while though but now we're back where we were.

DH doesn't wake up. If I want him to do it I have to wake him and ask him to go do it, which sort of feels it defeats the point as I'm awake by then, plus I hate asking as it makes me feel like I'm then somehow responsible for neither of us sleeping. He works a physical job that he has to leave at 7am for so I also tend to feel bad in that regard. I also work, in a known stressful job, but only three days a week and I start after I've dropped DCs at school. But of course his working pattern means I do all the morning routine and school runs too.

Anyway I feel unhappy a lot and this morning I completely lost my shit ranting at all of them. I feel trapped all the time and honestly like I'm losing my mind a bit. I've thought it's just me but maybe it's the sleep?

YABU - sleepless nights is part and parcel of having kids
YANBU - those nights sound particularly unusual/awful

My son is autistic with ADHD and until about 4 the sleep was hell. Awake for hours every night, we'd take the night waking in shifts, 2 hours at a time each. He now sleeps better, but still wakes in the night and needs resettling. A double bed in his room has been a live saver. He wakes up, one of us goes and gets in with him and invariably both fall asleep for the rest of the night.
In our house we do whatever gets us the best nights sleep even if that involves musical beds, although do only have one child and a husband who isn't totally useless.

I would do a couple of things.

1. from tonight, I would insist on doing alternate nights with DH. It’s ridiculous you’re doing all night shifts every night.

2. contact a sleep specialist. You need to break the habit. I expect you are in the position of being so tired and it’s being going on so long that you cannot see the wood for the trees on how to get out of the situation. A decent specialist will offer you some practical advice on how to break the patterns. You will have a few tough nights, and plenty of tears - but you need to break this pattern for your sake and theirs.

Honestly I never sleep trained and was v lazy about nights and waited for them to sleep through on their own but all my older 2 were sleeping through by 2.5 and the youngest sleeps through most nights at just turned 2.

At 6 and 8 I think this is very unusual and it would be worth trying to troubleshoot what's happening at night. They should be able to go back to sleep on their own. You must be exhausted!!

OK yes, I do agree actually that they wake up more when they know they can come in with you. It doesn't make sense to me but it does seem to be true. When I stopped bringing DC2 and 3 into bed every time they woke and short term, spent more time/effort resettling them in their own beds that was what got them to sleep through. DC1 I did not prevent him but I stopped going to him, so he had to walk through to me himself and he seemed to decide at some point it wasn't worth the effort!

There is a good book by Lyndsey Hookway called Still Awake which is about sleep troubles with older children and won't suggest the Supernanny type technique but has some other suggestions.

Try cosleeping. Have a family bedroom for a few years. Whatever lets you all the best sleep.

What @FranticHare said. I know that it is unfortunately possible to function on this level of crappy sleep but it is completely miserable and you've been doing it for EIGHT YEARS.

The reason I'm with Frantic about getting external help is that you are important. You sound as if part of you feels like you should be able to fix everything without any support or help and with kids who are absolutely old enough to do better than this with zero harm - quite the opposite in fact, they would benefit from more sleep too. But you are too exhausted from almost a decade of solo slog to take a step back and make a plan, plus you're too tired to insist that your dh gets on board with whatever the plan is.

Even if he doesn't wake, I find it unimpressive that he hasn't got involved or supportive in any way. He needs to step up. But get that third party to help you both.

DD2 is 8yo and hates being on her own. What we do is if we get stuck in a pattern is break it.

So we would put your 6yo in your bed with your DH for a week. You in their bed. Everyone sleeps. Then it is reset time and as they have hopefully proved they can sleep all night now they do it in their own bed. Usually some bribery involved or a rule like they can't come in until 4am or something.

It isn't foolproof but breaking the pattern usually works for a while until we go on holiday or someone gets ill or something else happens.

They are completely taking the piss OP. If an 8yr old wakes they absolutely have the ability to self regulate and go back to sleep, or read for a bit or whatever but this is not your problem. It sounds harsh but I think you need to start with a firm chat with him. At worst if he comes in to tell you he can't sleep you reassure him give him a hug but do not get out of the bed to tuck him in and maybe next day another firm chat about why he shouldn't have done that. Then work on the 6 yr old, I appreciate a younger kid needs more reassurance but it's the same thing, a little hug in your room is one thing but do not get out of your bed and do not let him in. You'll spend a few nights lying there feeling guilty but it will be worth it!

Goodness me, just tell them no and mean it! They're 6 & 8, not toddlers.
Your sleep, relationship and sanity is just as important.

A bit of tough love will hurt you more than it will ever hurt them.

I take them straight back to bed, night light on and soft piano music. Each time they get up do the same. Night train them too, they should be out of pull ups by now.

It's a habit and all habits are hard to break but you need to do it for your sanity, Wake up DH and get him to take them back and take a harder line with them if that helps.

But how is that different to your kids wanting to sleep next to a body? We as adults want to sleep next to another adult, but little kids are expected to sleep by themselves?

Co sleeping isn't for ever. Whatever works man, sleep is king and husband can take turns cosleeping.

Mine all went straight into double beds for co sleeping. They graduated to singles in time.

My 2 were VERY similar, also at 6 and 8. Both have ended up being diagnosed with ADHD and dyspraxia (night wetting is common with adhd apparently).

DH did little and the DSes didn't want him. Plus he never heard then etc whereas I was trained to wake at the slightest noise.

Anyway, after various musical beds scenarios and mattresses on floors, we solved a LOT of the problems by buying them each a double bed. And putting a 2nd pillow and a blanket there. So I would just go back to sleep in one of their beds and Id get a much better night sleep. Not totally unbroken but more comfortable.

They are now 9 and 11 and only the 9 year old still wakes me (for nightmares) once a week ish.

Im glad I got up to them as they really were scared and hated being alone after a nightmare (which were nightly).

I tend to agree - neither of them ever had a cot, they coslept then had double bed in their room for awhile so one of us could just move over to them. I've always very much felt kids don't stop having needs at night, hence I always get up and sit with him to settle him.

It's just very hot and uncomfortable if they both get in now they're so much bigger. And I can't just let the younger one as the biggest would get jealous, so would be both again. We do have a "sleepover" once every week or two which is me cosleeping with them, which maybe muddles things? It's to give me a better night's sleep, though recently I've felt a hit squashed.

We also did years of DH on the sofa bed or in one of their beds. We were starting to feel a bit disconnected as both DCs are just always there, so loud and bicker/argue a lot - we think the oldest may have something neurodevelopmental going on, he never stops and everything is BIG. So being able to sleep next to each other again just gave us this little bit of time each day being near each other again. So I guess returning to cosleeping feels like a step backwards. But you might have a point.

They share a room, so they aren't totally alone. What age did yours graduate to singles?

Also I'm taking on board all the suggestions and very much not trying to be 'yes but' to everything. It's just so hard to gauge the best way to deal with things.

Oldest has been out of pull ups pretty much since he potty trained. The youngest, who also now wakes the most, was out of them for a few months then he started wetting every single night for weeks til we gave in and put them back on. He has the odd dry night. I don't know you can night train dryness, my understanding is it's hormonal and also not cause for concern til about 7yo? Youngest was 6 a couple of months ago.

Thank you I'll look up this book.

Being firm about not getting in with me is how I got oldest to stop waking multiple times a night. It doesn't seem to be doing anything yet for 6yo, except I'm more tired haha!

Night wetting is hormonal.

We used the pee alarm with ds1 when he was 7. Took 3 months and worked. But it meant more broken nights before it was solved.

Having gone through years of awful nights (dS1 didn't sleep through a single night until he was 7. Aged 3 he was still waking 8 times a night (reflux)) I can understand how it impacts couples.

Personally we just wrote off our nighttimes as times to be together and found other times during the day for us to connect e.g. having lunch together in work breaks.

That’s horrendous, you must be exhausted. My kids are 4 and 2 and aren’t like this.

I went through a similar thing with my 6yr old, in the end i got so utterly fed up of sitting at the end of her bed in the middle of the night not to mention exhausted i ended up putting a camp bed in my room and telling her if she woke up she could get in there. She was happy that she wasnt alone and i didnt have to get out of bed. Over time she just stopped coming in so often. I think knowing she could come in to us if she needed to took away the anxiety around night time

You could just make a cosy bed out of duvets and blankets in the corner if you dont have room for a blow up bed or camp bed.

My 4yo has been like this until a few months ago and I just decided that we'd have to just do a silent return. The Internet all said it would take 2-3 nights. It took 14 nights, he returned every 20 mins for 14 nights. But I kept going. And now he is sleeping through. But it was a hard bloody fortnight!

I was like your 6 year old at that age, completely unable to sleep, and scared of the dark. It was horrible. Turns out I have ADHD. Does your son have any other symptoms that could point to ADHD?

Or as another poster suggested, it could be a circadian rhythm disorder.

I think there are some really harsh responses on here. I too agree that it’s unreasonable as adults we get to sleep with a partner but kids must be alone and ‘cannot leave their beds unless ill’
i have one who has always been a troubled sleeper, didn’t sleep for more than 2 hours until he was 4 years old. It’s hard but we made peace with the fact that he needs comfort at night, and it won’t be forever. Still co-sleeping more often than not at age 9 but the independence is coming and I’m pleased it’s at his own pace.

My oldest has several ADHD type signs but the youngest doesn't, I don't think.

The nappy thing is partly why I get up with him, I remember my oldest waking up more for wees when he was on the brink of becoming dry, and then it settled. So I don't really want to tell 6yo to just stay in bed no matter what, because I feel like he needs to get up and use the toilet if he gets the urge at night if he's going to become dry.

What's even more frustrating is 6yo didn't used to be like this. At 2/3 even 4 he would just drop back off with a kiss and a cuddle, and more often than not would sleep through. But during that time the oldest was a nightmare - once stood in the hall for 4 hours in the middle of the night when I said I wouldn't lay with him back to sleep. Now he's got it together, the other one is a problem!!

I don't know what to do about DH. If I tell him, he'll likely try to do whatever I say. But I am feeling a bit like I shouldn't have to ask/tell, he should step up and tell me what happening to save my sleep. We just all act like mummy is a bit of a depressive nut. Which maybe I am but this sleep quality surely can't be helping!

I once had advice on here that I was giving DS mixed messages when he was about 3 and waking 2am to 5am. Some nights we'd take him downstairs to let the other parent sleep, some nights we'd try and let him cosleep (unsuccessfully, he is a kicker), some nights we'd try the put-back method. It only really worked when we stuck to one thing, which was putting him back on repeat.

I don't think you can 100% assume you're dealing with NT sleeping habits here so there might be value in speaking to a sleep consultant, but I do think having a fortnightly sleepover and making this a "treat" will not be helping. Especially given they share a room so have some company as it is.

So I don't really want to tell 6yo to just stay in bed no matter what, because I feel like he needs to get up and use the toilet if he gets the urge at night if he's going to become dry.

Thing is, telling him to stay in bed and telling him not to wake you up are 2 different things. He can get up for a wee then go back to bed.