To think this guidance on the safeguarding network is awful ?

[Nurserypractitioner]

Perplexing presentation and FII :

It states in the guidance for schools to basically be suspicious of parents -specifically mothers seeking a diagnosis of ASD or ADHD and then goes on to say about parents who think their child may need an ehcp??!!

A lot of children with ASD mask at school - so if an educational setting see a different presentation that’s probably due to masking yet they are saying it’s potentially a safeguarding issue and could be indicative of FII??? AIBU to think this is dangerous advice ?

Apparently rates of MSBP are 0.4 - 2.8 per 100000 children. No stats for FII as I don’t think it’s a diagnosis like MSBP it’s more a ‘situation’

I know Nurserypractictioner and knowing as many teachers as I do, I don't think many of them would be happy with this either, only those that like the power trip, not the very good and committed teachers who have the child's best interest at heart.
I mean who comes up with this shite? Seriously education needs a massive overhaul...

And this is part of the problem teachers have. We are expected to " diagnose" issues that we are just not trained for or experienced in. To make a referral to the community paediatrician in my county we first have to state what the problem is- whether the child has ADHD or ASD or neurodevelopmental disorder. I DONT KNOW! That's why I am asking a professional to decide, it's not my decision to make. But they won't accept the referral for triage unless I have diagnosed the issue first! And then backed it up with evidence, symptoms and ruled out any other causes. This used to be done by the GP, now it's down to school staff to do.
Similarly, I can't diagnose whether a parent has FII, I'm not a trained medical professional. But I am expected to and raise any concerns as a safeguarding issue. So either I don't raise any concerns as I'm not qualified to judge or I raise every concern just in case!
Rock and a hard place springs to mind!

Don't know if it makes a difference but a quick google tells me that MSBP first became a diagnosis by the now discredited prof. Roy Meadows. Quite a lot of interesting information about misdiagnosed children available too, further adding MSBP as a questionable diagnosis.

I dunno. I think my life would look pretty much the same.

Except that, instead of quietly getting on with it, I'd be dramatising a lot more. And seeking sympathy/ admiration from others.

In real life: my kid has a diagnosis. School couldn't meet his needs. I home ed him, largely funded by benefits. Thats the situation we're in and its just "Meh. It is what it is"

But I can absolutely imagine being a bit narcissistic and revelling in the situation.

And, furthermore, I can imagine how someone might contrive to bring that situation about in order to revell in it.

Yes and that's grossly unfair to make teachers the gatekeepers, and further alienates them from parents, which is not good for the child. Again I can't help but think there is an alternative motive to this.

I think the same as @spanieleyes (I'm a teacher and a SEN parent).

I had to basically diagnose my daughter in order to be able to work out what assessments we needed.

It's a crazy system.

The UK could avoid a lot of problems by making it a routine thing for DC to see a paediatrician instead of a GP who knows a little about a lot (the former happens in other developed countries).

When we finally saw an NHS paediatrician, more than 3 years after starting to experience severe problems, they simply rubber stamped the private assessments. Money saved for the NHS, but what if we hadn't been able to afford thousands getting private help?

@brokenlore
Absolutely!
Just to make a potential referral, we now have a 19 page parental referral form, a six page teacher referral form and a six page SENCO referral form. These all then go to triage where they are routinely refused for minor reasons, one came back because it was mentioned that the child has grommets when young, it was refused and told that parents had to rule out hearing issues first- except the child was " signed off " age 3 and now has suspected ADHD. But they need a hearing test first, which then takes several months to get, signed off again, referred back to CP. Refused because parents separated 3 years ago and we now have to rule out adverse life events- please tell me how you prove that behaviours are NOT due to a previous event! Ok, try to get a consultant psychologist report ( costs me £1200 from my limited SEND budget but hey ho!) several months later, report completed and doesn't refer to adverse childhood events, re- referred back to CP, refused again and parents are advised to get Early Help parenting support! Early help application completed ( another 9 pages!) but support refused as it doesn't meet criteria- Early help view this as a medical rather than parental issue! Back to CP and referred yet again! Still waiting for triage outcome! So that's a good 18 months before it even gets through triage. If it does, there's a 18 month wait list for an appointment and diagnosis can take a further 18-24 months to get to!

It's all delaying tactics!

Because it’s so glamorous, revelling in the trauma of the child and family, enjoying the scant amount of support that you’ve had to fight tooth and nail for.
There’s nothing heroic about it, it literally breaks people!

In terms of ASD and ADHD you are discharged after diagnosis in the majority of cases! It’s not something you go to appts or an and e for, there’s no ‘progression’ as such. No invasive treatments or operations.

Unless you’re prolific on social media with multiple accounts and getting attention that way I really don’t see that ASD or ADHD would be a good choice for someone with MSBP/FII it just doesn’t get that much / sort of attention?

Exactly, doesn’t make any sense at all!

I don't think most people 'get' the benefits. It's rare because the majority don't think like that. But, some do.

Its not fun for us, because we're normal people who put our kids first.

But yeah....I can imagine someone casting themsleves in the role of the struggling parent, in an endless battle for support.
Fighting tooth and nail, as you put it.
And enjoying the drama of that.

Thank you. Thats exactly the point I'm trying to make. You put it much more succinctly than me.

I just don’t understand how anyone gets anything out of it. It’s a losing game however you look at it.

They're enjoying thinking of themselves as a selfless, struggling mother. And they're enjoying other people viewing them in that light.

Its more attractive than being an ordinary person with mundane problems.
And it isn't painful for them because their kid's wellbeing isnt as much of an issue to them.

I see what you’re getting at, I think (but still can’t get my head round it!), but even if that’s the case in a minority I still don’t think children and families suffering is an acceptable collateral.

What’s wrong with a start point that parents (or mothers as it usually is!) are telling the truth? That seems to be such a problem for many people. They’d far rather believe we’re all
in it for the attention and the money.

Yes - assume that parents are being honest then if assessments by professionals are coming back ‘negative’ that may be the point to start questioning. This way round parents are under suspicion by teachers who aren’t qualified to diagnose ! Teachers are gatekeepers to the assessment process or put obstacles in the way by saying children are fine in school….. they are being told to challenge those who are qualified to diagnose ?? It’s a recipe for disaster it’s treating parents as guilty from the first point they start having to push for support - they shouldn’t even have to push for support !

Also the support for ASD for a non ASD child won't harm them. It's not like FII where a child undergoes medical procedures and medication they don't need. The harm done to kids who need the support and are denied it far far outweighs the 'harm' for any 'wrongly supported'. I accept ADHD is medicated but to be diagnosed with that and subsequently medicated you need a proper assessment- and teachers can already block that diagnosis by filling in forms saying fine in school. So to tell them to watch for FII is just wrong

It’s a recipe for disaster it’s treating parents as guilty from the first point they start having to push for support - they shouldn’t even have to push for support !

Exactly.

This is what confuses me the most it’s as if they want to somehow by stealth add to the alerting factors for FII and want ASD and ADHD ‘on the list’ but it doesn’t fit with the rest of it ??

And the irony of it is, as rare as MSBP/FII is - having the focus on things like ASD and ADHD with assessments that are non invasive and not harmful they will be potentially missing any real cases with the attention wrongly elsewhere

ASD and ADHD are extremely poor examples. The case I thought of when you started the thread is this one - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65428918

It’s almost as if someone has thought (for what reason I don’t know) that they can piggyback ASD and ADHD onto FII guidance but it’s just not right ? It doesn’t fit