To think this guidance on the safeguarding network is awful ?

[Nurserypractitioner]

Perplexing presentation and FII :

It states in the guidance for schools to basically be suspicious of parents -specifically mothers seeking a diagnosis of ASD or ADHD and then goes on to say about parents who think their child may need an ehcp??!!

A lot of children with ASD mask at school - so if an educational setting see a different presentation that’s probably due to masking yet they are saying it’s potentially a safeguarding issue and could be indicative of FII??? AIBU to think this is dangerous advice ?

It certainly does happen, and it's awful, but neurodivergence is common, MBP less so.

It feels like casting the net wide to catch those very rare cases and in the process damaging families with false accusations. There must be a better way surely the diagnostic process for things like ASD and ADHD and listening to those at the top of the health hierarchy is important !

Yes. Surely also if a child doesn't have ADHD or Autism the assessor will realise this and the child won't be diagnosed?

@BlueBlubbaWhale but if that's the evidence school were seeing, they can't lie or make up observations. We aren't talking 1 individual here, it would be teachers, SLT and SENCo. Why didn't you go via your GP or apply yourself for an EHCP if you were seeing the evidence ay home?

Exactly.

The diagnosis process for ASD is lengthy . It involves an ADOS test (majority of the time the parent isn’t even in the room so can’t influence it) , observations from other professionals. Yes there is a parent interview but that’s only one part and they don’t diagnose on just one part of the assessment. It a multidisciplinary approach it just wouldn’t be possible to fake it. Are there parents though being blocked from even getting that far - if they can’t get an assessment for years due to being denied or waiting years a child will still need support but are schools saying no and saying they suspect FII? So without an assessment they can’t prove anything ? The assessment itself wouldn’t be detrimental to a child the ADOS is play based for young children it’s nothing invasive

I'm in part intrigued by this. What about people who pay for private assessments?

It's pretty scary they're saying teachers should challenge health professionals.

Completely agree with you here OP but some parents push and push and push when there's no concern from a schools point of view.

The school isn’t the final authority on whether a child might be neurodivergent, if the assessment process was easier to access, and appropriate supports available for children independent of diagnosis parents wouldn’t need to push and push. The amount of fighting you have to do to get the smallest supports and adjustments for a child, much less to actually get an assessment and possible diagnosis is ridiculous - it’s been like a full time job at times.

FII is incredibly rare, and usually the parent is well known to health professionals as well as the school. It’s a complex multi agency assessment, not something for a safeguarding lead to assess in isolation. Similarly professional challenge is needed in any safeguarding process, but that challenge must be based on something other than a disagreement about whether a child has SEN and a pushy parent.

Its very simplistic guidance at best, and given some schools don’t deal well with kids with SEN, to the point of informal exclusion and off-rolling, I don’t have confidence that this guidance wouldn’t be misused to get a tricky parent to back off.

This is only the case (and this is the guidance for) when the parent has Münchausen’s syndrome by proxy. It's not generic advice for staff dealing with any/all parents.

I think that people who have never had to fight for their children’s support for SN don’t really understand how hard it is. Difficulties can be dismissed, understated, and ignored because to support them adequately costs money, time and effort. I thought the county council SEN Dept would be full of sympathetic people who wanted to make a positive difference to children with SN and I was horrified by the adversarial atmosphere. I was lucky to get a Statement of SEN for my DS when he was 4 which transferred to an EHCP when they came in, but every annual review was a battle to maintain support. Being patronised and condescended to was a familiar feeling. The occasional SENCO or LSA/TA who was sympathetic were absolute stars.

Anecdotally (IME) it’s more common for those requesting support for their children’s needs to be disbelieved and ignored than for them to actually have FII. Frightening that teachers are being trained that their first reaction to a parent wanting support for their child is to consider FII!

As long as they follow NICE guidelines and it’s a multidisciplinary approach surely that shouldn’t be a problem

Spot on.
The first words after a "friend " got the ADHD diagnosis for her child " now I can claim pip "

It does feel like from this guidance that somewhere it is felt that schools should be the final authority on it - especially the advice to challenge the hierarchy within health ! Surely professionals should be working together

PIP is for over 16s, also maybe she was relieved as having a SEN child can mean so many extra expenses?

There is research on this showing Pareto neurodivergent kids are falsely accused of FII too frequently. Particularly if they are neurodivergent themselves.

Its infuriating. Why don't they just assess the kids instead of accusing the parents.

I have an autistic child. Was fobbed off when I raised concerns. I've requested the notes and it's full of things like mum seems anxious/overly worried mum blah blah blah. My child is now not at school as they can't keep him safe and wont accept him he has pitiful amount of alternative provision and requires 2:1 and still they say it's not right for him. He's just 6 years old. I had to pay private diagnosis to get them to stop saying it's all in mums head and now they just say there is no provision that can meet need.

People without neurodiverse kids don't really know the reality of our school system. This guidance is very concerning. Yes some parents to push where there is nothing there but it's nothing like the problem it's made out to be

I think that's my query, is that always the case for all assessment processes?
Just thinking about another thread recently where safeguarding issues potentially managed v differently depending on financial background of parents.
Is it a bit different if you can just fork out for what you want and don't have to fight tooth and nail for what is needed?

The first words after a "friend " got the ADHD diagnosis for her child " now I can claim pip "

Really it’s not a financial incentive, I get DLA for one of my kids, £350 a month. Their needs (and all the associated health appointments, and the constraints of specialist school provision) mean I can only work part time, which means I loose considerably more than the allowance they give me, and I have the additional costs of getting to and from multiple health appointments. I also run a small business, which gives some flexibility but is also limited by the need to be available for my child. My earning potential is so significantly limited, and benefits nowhere near makes up for it.

There really aren’t financial incentives for most people with a disabled child.

Well she obviously doesn't know this but that's what she's focused on...money.

The child really doesn't have any extra needs... you should believe me on this.

Some parents just really know how to play "the game "

My DC's head teacher reported me to Social Services the day I told his class teacher that I had made a GP appointment to discuss ASD assessment. She never apologised when he was diagnosed. She punished him by taking away the behaviour certificate his class teacher awarded him. She appeared convinced that she knew more than the multi disciplinary team of medical professionals that diagnosed him. Did she write this?

The child really doesn't have any extra needs... you should believe me on this.

And yet a professional assessed them to have ADHD.

That’s horrific 😞

@ElloraHerownspace

There is absolutely no incentive whatsoever for a parent to suggest a diagnosis or kick off an EHCP process unless you are a total masochist.

This is not true and I have first hand experience of parents (yes both were mothers) seeking diagnosis for ASD/ADHD. As a way to explain their dc's behaviour as they were struggling to accept their child is experiencing significant attachment and trauma based on their life experiences. Neither parents were masochists, they themselves were trauma victims and just couldn't accept what professionals were telling them. In both cases there were safeguarding concerns.

YANBU

It's institutional gaslighting. Our LEA tried something similar to try and avoid assessing our child for an EHCP. Turned out, not only did our child meet the criteria but his needs have increased as he's got older and he'll probably be in a SEND school by year 6. But authorities are good at trying to pretend that concerned parents are just making a fuss unnecessarily....

But that isn't FII. Mothers with FII want their children treated and assessed and endless hospital appointments.

An ASD/ADHD DX just gets you waved off into the sunset.

I find it deeply problematic that these are the examples they've chosen.

I’m not sure I agree. I don’t think it’s suggesting that teachers, and other professionals, routinely question and challenge the expertise of Drs. I think it means that where there are concerns about incorrect action being taken those concerns are voiced. Any professional can make a mistake/bad judgement. As a social worker I challenged a paediatrician clinic note because it was incorrect and I had been the person at the appointment with the child. I don’t think teachers can claim expertise over a dr but I do think they can challenge and say “I’m concerned about x because we have seen y.