Would you move to Cape Town?

[ZarZarGabor]

Sorry posting here for traffic.

A good job opportunity has come up to move to Cape Town with work, likely for 3 years or so. We have one pre-school age child and are aware childcare options there are more affordable.

We have spent some time there before and so are alive to some of the issues the country faces including crime, load shedding and bureaucracy. However we still absolutely love the place and want an adventure.

Would be grateful to hear the views of people who have direct experience living there, especially with a young child.

I know lots of people will have a “friend of a friend” who has had bad experiences in South Africa, but I’d really like to hear from people who actually live or have lived there about day to day life for an expat and the sorts of considerations we might have forgotten to factor into (we have already considered visas, healthcare, security, costly mobile phone data etc).

thanks for any advice.

Not in a million years no.

Never under any circumstances, and I have been all over South Africa.
Cape Town is cold, wet, dangerous. You could be killed just for your car, or even wallet. The slums were worse than India, as was the violence.
Much prefer Durban.

that they don't want their daughters raped and murdered ? The ignorance of people who have only ever enjoyed the luxuries of a developed country is quite annoying. When you have experienced the fear of waking up with someone in your bedroom with a gun, then come back and give your opinion on the motives of people leaving South Africa.

@ZarZarGabor My DDs went to school in South Africa for a term on a school exchange. Years ago now but I was very struck by main the topic of conversation when we met South Africans. Security. Followed up by the poor government.

i therefore think you have to be prepared for a culture shock. People live differently. They do have safety measures in homes that we don’t have so much here. You would have to accept driving everywhere and thinking very hard about where you go and what you do. Crime is talked about by everyone and everyone will have advice for you.

We only met very rich South Africans. Now the ones we knew best are here. They can afford to be. Of course it’s a wonderful country and I would go. What I don’t think you have thought about is how you would feel wondering if you would be robbed at the traffic lights or there was an attempt to kidnap your dc. Both these happened to parents we met. Sometimes South Africans come across as harsh but it’s borne out of necessity. It’s a “no messing” sort of place.

It’s not likely that people with young kids were there during apartheid or would have been children at most. I have heard too that the lifestyle is different- by that they mean the crime is so bad that kids can’t ride about on their bikes and people feel on edge like prisoners in their homes instead of a relaxed outdoor lifestyle.

I suppose what you might conclude about that family is that they don’t like to live in a high crime society with horrendous levels of violence and sexual violence. To be honest, that’s everyone who has a choice.

Apartheid ended in the early 1990's so the last family members waited for nearly 30 after the formation of a democratically elected government before they left.

The rising crime rate rather than greater racial equality seems to be the reason for people leaving.

Do you think people should stay regardless of how dangerous it is just because some random on the internet might think they are racist?

Honestly in the 7 years that I lived there I rarely had a conversation about security, and even then it was mostly with English people asking about the security. But then I wasn’t living in a gated community and didn’t have exceptionally rich friends.

@Norney i was thinking the same... what lifestyle??? 'Whites only no coloureds' signs???!!

The one person I know who did go to live in Cape Town returned home fairly swiftly after a woman was raped and murdered in her local post office by a post office employee. The man was someone my contact had encountered regularly and wasn't someone she had any qualms about. She was badly affected by it and came home as soon as possible.

I nearly did but for family reasons had to drop out. I'd say the main consideration for me would be the security your employer offers (how secure is accommodation, would you have security guards etc) and also knowing what if any security constraints would your employer place on you (eg mine had lots of rules like no Ubers, couldn't go to certain places (even some that were nominally safe for tourists) etc). One thing to be aware of is the need to drive everywhere at night as even walking very short distances is unsafe. Getting money out of cashpoints is always stressful. Friends with children when I was there said they found the security situation particularly stressful for them as it was impossible to train them up to be vigilant in the way an adult would be. That said they all felt for a short time (eg 2-3 years) it was a great experience. I was sold that it was worth it, as long as you're someone who's on the ball/streetwise and willing to compromise on what you can do when for security reasons. Stunning place.

Oh and the other major selling point is it being the gateway to lots of other awesome African destinations you can get to very cheaply.

You guys are donkeys years behind what SA is like these days, and why it is like that.

OP, I work for an SA company and have travelled many times and lived their once. The deterioration in the last 15yrs alone is shocking.

I totally appreciate your desire of an adventure but I would firmly urge that this is not the kind of adventure you really want or that will benefit you and your young family overall.

You said you have family their already, have you visited?

I thought about it as I had family there. I went for an extended stay to check it out. Love the place but never felt safe. I came back after a month. There is an undercurrent sadly.Horrible things happened to some neighbours while I was there. Couldn’t even go back for a holiday sadly.

Do you want to have to think about your safety, and that of your children, every minute of every day?

Do you want to live in a home with bars on the doors and windows to keep out possible intruders?

Do you want to not go out alone at night, or walk on the streets alone outside, pretty much ever, even in broad daylight, as a woman?

Do you want to live in a country that is so endemically, disgustingly and obviously racist to the point where shanty towns housing millions of unrecorded Black people are an accepted norm? Where every rich white family still has a Black maid they pay a pittance?

My best friend lived in CT for 7 years after marrying a SA man. They left after she was held at gunpoint in the primary school where she worked, a gang having broken in to steal the children's lunch money. Thank God she escaped with her life. Many other people, on a daily basis, don't. Someone will no doubt correct me on this but I believe last time I checked, 50% of women living in SA have been raped. And this is a country you're seriously thinking about moving to.

Every time I visited I never felt safe. It's a beautiful country, but it's a totally lawless place. My best friend said the sense of relief coming back to the UK was indescribable. The amount of headspace and emotional energy taken up by constantly having to think about your safety was something she only really understood when she didn't have to do it anymore. As much as her DH misses his family, they'll never go back.

I'm sure you want an adventure, but that adventure might turn out to have tragic consequences for you. A holidaymaker got shot and killed there just last week. Don't think it couldn't happen to you.

Bloody hell...looked at some property in Camps Bay - electrified wire and bars on the windows and spikes on the walls- no thanks.
like living in a prison.

Exceptionally beautiful views though.

Lived in SA, family in cape, Durban and port Elizabeth. I speak afrikaans although only by necessity.

Look all the horror stories that you hear about and don't wanna read here. They aren't horror stories to us, that was day to day life. The way we talk about our neighbours being robbed, raped or experiencing sever violence is with the same normality as people discussing the weather over here. That's how frequent the violence is, how normal.

I won't start on the gender norms that are completely different to the uk, that your kids will be thrown into that you won't even realise is being taught. Which is the tip of a very deep iceberg....

When fear becomes the norm, it's not a good idea to take kids for that to become their base line.

Emergency services or the police aren't like they are over here, you getting burgled and held at gun point (if your lucky) and someone in your house calls them. They won't show up to rescue you, they will show up v causally in a few hours to see which "side survived". I'm not kidding.

Stopping at robots will get your car hijacked. The nicer the car the more likely it's to happen. You may end up going through cars...

People forget these people are starving, and if they have to kill you to feed their family or whatever, they will. I don't mean this disrespectfully but people don't know the term poor until they see some of the sights in SA.

Love that place, love the people (incredibly friendly people- obviously not the ones who rob you etc), but gates security can only go so far.

We lived on a gated community and all the cons, still came back to find one of our neighbours had been taken apart by robbers with her own tools box.

If you do go for it my only advice is - spread the word that you have a snake. Preferably a large one in your house. And learn self defence, how to shoot a gun and also teach your kids how to swim pronto (no matter the age) Pools everywhere. Most kids are taught way younger than in uk kids, there's a reason for that. Also don't swim in Cape Town sea (the cage divers are closer to the shore line than most would like, and the water shelves so the sharkies are much closer in than you think. Also don't believe in the shark nets - rarely do they go all the way to the bottom in SA. Don't go out alone at night unless you want to be robbed.

And if you visit table mountain for the love of god watch where your stepping. The amount of people who fall off the edge but taking a step back to take a family photo is just mind blowing.

Was at a hotel in Scotland early in the year which is employing lots of South Africans who were keen to get the hell out of places including Cape Town and Joburg. That's the extent of my 2 bits' worth! No, would not move there. Especially with children.

I know many wealthy South Africans who have left due to crime. One of the more philosophical was quite happy to live with the crime, including being robbed at gun point by intruders in their Cape Town home in a gated community, but refused to take that risk once they had children and left. You also are not from there so you have no idea how to navigate it safely so the risk for you is way higher than natives. I have heard many people from more dangerous places say they can’t relax when they go back there on holiday as they are no longer ‘plugged in’ to the local vibe and have become too complacent after years of living in safe countries. I know one person from SA that only travels with an armed guard when they return.

I understand that in SA there is a real divide between those that are eligible for an EU passport and those that aren’t, the former have all got out and the latter are desperately trying to get work visas etc. And it continues to get worse. I honestly wouldn’t romanticize a three year adventure there.

Absolutely no. It's a gorgeous place but no to living there. My South African colleague said she will never move back there. All her family and her husbands family are leaving/ left for UK. It's unsafe for families- She has told me horrific stories. It's so sad as we have visited and it's beautiful.

South Africa and rape..
This device was invented there, rape is so prevalent.

A toothed device that only a doctor can remove- wonder if it actually works?

https://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/06/20/south.africa.female.condom/index.html

My late dh was from Cape Town and we visited a few times in the past. We've not been for a while but my dds were thinking of visiting and staying with late dhs family at some point. This thread has put me off the idea though.

No way. Too many SA colleagues who don't even go back for holidays with their DC. Recently a colleague's DM was ill and her brother went over, not her because she has DCs and he didn't want her to risk it.

Not on your nelly.

I’m a expat living in a third country and dual citizen of U.K. and South Africa and regularly spend time in both, plus where I live now.

Given the number of negative responses, you don’t need more tales of violence and woe. Yes terrible things happen. But also plenty of SA residents are never personally touched by violent crime. Thus far, touch wood, I fall into the latter category. How many near misses have I had? That I can’t tell, you but probably a few. Ask me how many near misses did I have in London? I’d give you the same answer.

I’m more interested in the moving half way around the world aspect of your question rather than the “where to” as most people who do this for the first time, me included, are woefully underprepared.

You might be better off asking the question, if I move to Cape Town for three years, what do I need to know?

To live well in South Africa, like the U.K. or anywhere, you need a fuck-off big package with relocation costs AND repatriation costs included.

I don’t know what level the working person is on, but you usually have to be pretty high up to be properly protected when you move.

Frequently, people lower down the ladder get less practical packages as the company’s know people will accept some trade offs for a change in location or the career bump.

A big “tell” is how big is the company that is moving you and how often do they move people like this? If the answer is small, and not so often, in my experience the HR people putting these package’s together really don’t have a practical clue of what a move like this entails. That said, small companies can be good, big companies can be bad, but what vibe are you getting from the employer?

Is it an employer you know and trust or is it a new job? Is it a SA employer or is it an international one?

I went there for busness a fair bit and made great friends who took me out and to their homes a fair bit.

If you have the money it is amazing BUT personal security is totally different.
so your purse/ handbag always goes in your boot, you have to be vigilant entering your car gate (car jacking) most cars have bullet proof glass

I cant think of other stuff but it is a lot.

The lifestyle is fantastic mountains, beach, bush... the food is unreal.
there is also a heavy entrepreneurial vibe in cape town which i LOVED but it comes with heavy cons. I wanted to move there (they said they'd sort me.out a job) but my DH said no waaay.