Would you move to Cape Town?

[ZarZarGabor]

Sorry posting here for traffic.

A good job opportunity has come up to move to Cape Town with work, likely for 3 years or so. We have one pre-school age child and are aware childcare options there are more affordable.

We have spent some time there before and so are alive to some of the issues the country faces including crime, load shedding and bureaucracy. However we still absolutely love the place and want an adventure.

Would be grateful to hear the views of people who have direct experience living there, especially with a young child.

I know lots of people will have a “friend of a friend” who has had bad experiences in South Africa, but I’d really like to hear from people who actually live or have lived there about day to day life for an expat and the sorts of considerations we might have forgotten to factor into (we have already considered visas, healthcare, security, costly mobile phone data etc).

thanks for any advice.

Honestly it was just you and your dh id consider it but I wouldn't choose to bring my kids to live in such a lawless city.
Holidayed there a number of years ago but the stress answer pressure of constantly being alert was exhausting. I remember the car hire guy reminding us to leave absolutely nothing ( even a hoodie) in the back of the car as it would be broken into everywhere and not to stop for anyone or anything while driving along. Live is too short to live like that

As I side note, if you've neve lived there, how can you say how it is?? People are really commenting ignorant bs.

I think most people are repeating direct information from people who have lived there so it’s not really the same as just random views. Perhaps the OP might find them helpful? Depends if it’s a random one liner from a friend of a friend in a pub one night or regular detailed insight from close friends granted.

This isn't a shanty town. It's a squatter's camp for people who are homeless.

Of course white people live in poverty in South Africa, as they do in countries all over the world. But a squatter's camp and a shanty town are not the same thing. Saying 'but white people are poor too' doesn't negate how racist and unequal South Africa is.

Many Black children living in shanty towns have never been registered as having been born. They don't even exist as citizens. They can't work. They have no rights. That is not the same as the situation white people living in Coronation Park are in. Attempting to compare them is, quite frankly, offensive.

I can't believe that people on this thread are trying to minimise the reality of how deeply ingrained racism is in South Africa and how unequal society remains. It's shameful. As someone who spent some time volunteering in a shanty town, it made me feel physically sick that so many wealthy white South Africans were perfectly happy to live a short drive away from millions of people living in dire poverty, their homes quite literally barricaded against the danger they perceived those people to represent to them.

And this is a country that the OP thinks it'll be an adventure to go and live in for three years. As long as she's on a luxury compound, that is.

It's sickening. I'm sorry if that's offensive to some people, but it really, really is.

EnidSpyton what do you think the solutions are for South Africa’s problems?

Sorry I wasn’t trying to be flippant mentioning the cost of data, just an example
of the sort of day to day consideration an expat might not know about. My posts make it clear I am well aware of the crime and security situation, and this thread has largely focussed on people’s anecdotal (not direct) stories of crime. I have spent time there before so I’m not coming to this as a total outsider.

we have evaluated the security risk and are hoping to gain valuable insights about what other considerations, good or bad, we might have overlooked. The feedback is all helpful though!

No not farmers 🙂

Acknowledging that the problems exist might be a start, going by some of the comments of South Africans on this thread.

I find some of the sentiments in these posts quite aggressive but take less personal offence at them as I’ve seen similar levels of “hate” directed towards the USA in terms of school shootings etc. @ZarZarGabor you should read some of the threads in the overseas living topic about people moving to the first world for some perspective and balance.

To me it sounds like you would actually like to do this. In all honesty, I would consider moving back, but I’m a capitalist at heart so it would have to be SIGNIFICANTLY worth my while to compensate for the personal risk and to be able to contribute to community upliftment initiatives.

South Africa has issues. Lots of them. And it’s not a country where you can cruise along, asleep at the wheel. Occasionally, not in SA, I find that I’ve wandered into less than safe situations simply because I’ve not been paying attention. In SA, you ALWAYS have to pay attention, even at home, so that’s something to consider. Some people find it exhausting. Some people get used to it.

The one thing that I personally struggle with is the vast disparity between the haves and the have nots. It is impossible to go about your daily business and not notice it. I’ve had to develop some seriously thick skin without losing my sense of humanity. I’m always supporting one community outreach or another, it’s the only way I can sleep. Plus ad hoc things related to my former employee (now retired on their pension, living in the house I bought for her, who I did not pay a pittance) I also have a tribe of street dogs who now live in the lap of luxury. South Africa tends to follow you around a bit once you’ve lived there, even for a short time.

if you are living there, I think you must work towards contributing to the solution, not adding to the problem. But anyhoo.

In terms of “good” support and package, how much detail have you got at the moment? Is it broad level info - eg. You’ll have private medical aid or detailed info eg. You’ll be on the Discovery Health Classic Comprehensive plan with “x” months waiting period and “x” exclusions for pre-existing conditions. They are both the same, but also not!

If it’s a company that’s moved people often, what do your/DH’s colleagues say about their experience? I’m the trailing spouse so whenever I got wind about someone being moved, I always reached out to the spouse to see if I could help/offer a soft landing. When we did our next move, one of the other spouses reached out to me. Is there anyone you could chat to rather than randoms on mumsnet?

Housing wise, I’d be less concerned about prioritising a gated security village over actual area/location and amenities such as home security which you control as well an alternative power and water sources.

Oh one other thing is if you do go - get 2 (minimum) big dogs. They are excellent security / robber deterrents

German shepards are a good / popular choice.

@ZarZarGabor you keep talking as if anecdotal experiences are irrelevant compared to direct ones.

The anecdotal experiences people are sharing are direct experiences of people they know.

It doesn't negate an event's reality to have it related through a third person.

Regardless, you seem determined to see the positives of this move and I have to admire your positivity in the face of the overwhelming negativity on this thread. Good luck to you. You may be lucky and not experience violent crime. Or you may not be. None of us can tell you. It's up to you to decide what level of risk you want to take and it seems like you've already decided the risks are worth it for the adventure you perceive South Africa to represent for you. I hope you're right and that no harm befalls you and your family, and that it's everything you hope it will be.

Excuse me, what would you have the average South African do? MAny, many people volunteer and give their time and money in uplifting the poor. Would you have every (richer) family move out of their home and give it to someone that lives in an informal camp?
Is it also sickening that a childless couple live in a large London home, where people live 6 or 8 in a terraced? It isn't offensive it is just plain rude to suggest that South African's are more than happy to live in a large house while others don't and just barricade the problem. Again, what would you have us do?

@DeeCee77 I agree that's London safer than most places, of course crime happens everywhere. But that's my point my "danger radar is off kilter

But the point I was trying to make (v inarticulately) that you acclimatise not just to the heat but the danger levels, the racism, sexism and many other fairly not good things just because they are ever present but also because you are more versed at dealing with it not because the situation got less hot/dangerous/ violent etc.

For me going back it's not a big thing, but for someone who isn't in the know and doesn't know the weird and wonderful things you have to do to exist in a fairly healthy way. It's a culture shock.

It's all about people's risk tolerance, some can stand the risk levels being higher some need them lower. Neither a wrong, it's all just a matter of opinion.

No way, especially not with children. I have heard awful stories, ones that have affected my own family and know people who have been murdered.

The worst thing I ever heard, and what always sticks with me was during a hijacking a little boy of 4 was dragged to death after he got his foot stuck in a seatbelt. You can tuck yourself into a gated community, but at some point you need to go out and I know so many people who have been hijacked.

We lived in Perth (Australia) for a few years a while back and there were lots of folk emigrating from SA /Cape Town etc. one of the kids in my DS’s primary school class used to obsessively make little videos to send his friends back home of them playing in the park, his bedroom with no bars on the windows, walking to school - the simplest of things that he was just amazed by.

a doctor friend had a SA colleague who came to the U.K. for a conference. He was shot dead in his taxi in SA less than half an hour of arriving back home.

Its such a shame as it’s such a beautiful country but it would be a no from me.

Whats the point of living in SA if you are stuck in your house too terrified to leave it in case you are attacked.

@Totalwasteofpaper I know your advice about dogs is well-meaning but I’ll run with it:

One. This is a temporary posting. What happens to said large, scary dogs after their time is up?

Two. For dogs to be effective as security they need to be at the heart of the home, not only at the perimeter. It’s incredibly easy for outside dogs to be interfered with rendering them incapacitated.

Three. Our smaller dogs were far more invested in the comings and goings than our bigger dogs.

Four. Only get a dog if you are dog people.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you say as a fellow capetonion

@ThroughGraceAlone

It's different when you're not born somewhere and don't grow up with a situation as your reality.

The UK is obviously deeply racist, too, but it's largely covert racism. We don't have entire ghettos or shanty towns where just people of colour live. The overt racism I saw in South Africa shocked me to my core. As someone brought up in the UK, I couldn't move there and live alongside that inequality with any level of comfort. I couldn't contribute to the existing problem by becoming another white person living in a gated community.

I appreciate it's complex and everyone is doing the best they can with the means they have to help others. I'm sure you're doing the best you can within a broken society. However, the reality is that to an outsider it is sickening to see how overt inequality is in SA and that is really the point I am making - not that South Africans are evil people who are doing nothing to help each other - but that the way society is unfortunately structured due to the consequences of apartheid means that racism is a much starker reality than the OP will be used to, and living with that is not easy. Making a choice to join an unequal society and benefit from it knowingly at the cost of others is not the same as being born into a world you can't necessarily change.

Sorry, but do you seriously believe people only stay in their houses? People go on holiday, beaches are full, kids go to school, theatre, national parks, camping, hiking etc. Heck there's crime, but people on this thread make it out as if people are not living in SA. Just sitting in their houses.
Head over to Instagram and see the photos people post.

That was for @EnidSpyton

Many Black children living in shanty towns have never been registered as having been born. They don't even exist as citizens. They can't work. They have no rights.

There is absolutely no legal structure stopping any South African from registering the birth of their child, although admittedly Home Affairs is an absolute fuck-up.

OP I have two siblings who are still in SA - one in Cape Town and one in the rural interior. Touch wood, neither of them and their families have been the victim of serious or violent crime although it is of course always a worry. I do unfortunately know other people who have been murder victims but I actually know more who have been killed on the roads - driving standards are atrocious there and something I tend to find personally more of a worry than crime when I visit.

We've always happily travelled around when on holiday, sat out in the garden in the evenings, walked around, eaten out etc but this has tended to be in more rural areas, if I was somewhere like Johannesburg or Durban it would be a different matter.

I wouldn't say it's more dangerous if you're white, no. Statistically (leaving aside farm murders which are a different, complex issue) white people have a lower % murder rate than the population average, probably because overall they can afford better security, less reliant on public transport etc.

It has got worse over the last few years yes. There has obviously been horrendous corruption particularly under Zuma and the damage is becoming more and more apparent, as discussed to the point where they can't really keep the lights on any more. Covid did its damage as well. It definitely feels less safe than five years ago.

So leaving aside the fear of serious crime, there are the petty frustrations of being in a country which just isn't properly run, although the Western Cape under the DA is far better than other areas. It's a beautiful country with enough positives that the risks are worth it to some people, but many just stay as they don't have the resources, qualifications or access to other passports to immigrate. There isn't a very optimistic vibe at present.

Close friends of mine from Cape Town have relocated to England.

There is a lot of (reverse) racism, and realistically there are no job prospects for their children (13 & 14) so they have moved to the UK (father is English) to give their children the best opportunities.

The lifestyle out there isn’t what it was either. And issues like a manic lock-in at the pick & pay supermarket led to increasing fear, as well as having their house broken into etc.

The only regret is selling the boat and not exporting it to the UK as they managed to buy near enough the coast in the end.

If you have older kids, definitely consider their further education and job prospects before making commitments.

South African born and raised here @ZarZarGabor, albeit in one of the other major cities. I never intended to be in the U.K. long term but here we are.

Many have pointed out the safety risks - I’ll not go into that further. Some practicalities. In my experience you can protect yourself financially to a certain degree - be sure that your contract covers a good medical aid for ‘standard’ cover but also top up cover as many specialists now charge multiples of the medical aid rates. You will exceed your medical aid limits every year do ensure you have savings to top this up and pay your excess.

Have a plan for when the electricity goes out or there are water shortages. I don’t have much guidance on this I’m afraid as I left before these were such chronic issues.

Assume that you will need to replace your cars on an annual basis as they will get stolen (yes, even if you have an alarm, a tracker, an immobiliser and steering lock). Assume your handbag/wallet, watch and jewellery (e.g. engagement ring) will get stolen and either don’t wear your nice things or insure them appropriately. If approached by anyone who asks for your wallet/car/phone etc hand it to over to them immediately - your life is worth more than any of these things.

I presume you’ll be on work permits, which will help. Anything that involves a visit to Home Affairs/DIRCO (e.g. passport renewal, ID book replacement, birth certificates etc) take an age in queues to sort. Make friends with your colleagues. They’ll know a guy who knows a guy who’ll stand in the queue for you for the five hours (no exaggeration) it takes to sort. It will cost, obviously, but better and safer than missioning into the centre of town to do so yourself. Assume everything will take much longer than planned - it took me three visits just to pay the tax on my car.

Be prepared for the tough questions from your child about why the children begging at the robots (traffic lights) are sniffing glue from under their T-shirts. Keep photos copies of your drivers license, medical aid details and next of kin in your glovebox as if you are incapacitated in a car accident your wallet and phone will get stolen - the (private) ambulance crews will be the first on the scene (the tow truck drivers second - the cops don’t bother) and unless they can ascertain that you have the funds they will take you to the local government hospital. You can do your own reading up on the state of these.

Not ebeb the wealthy could get their hands on Covid vaccines, so you’ll just have to hope there aren’t any issues like that again. Teach your child never to touch bodily fluids of any description - HIV AIDS is still a huge issue. Ensure you have the appropriate vaccinations, including BCG.

HTH

I work for an international firm, mixing with a diverse crowd (all the way from young people just starting their careers and up). We have a massive office in SA who I work with regularly. I have been struck by the sheer number of first hand accounts of extreme violence when visiting SA as a tourist or for business. I'm talking about stuff that just isn't routine or an "average" level of burglar or mugging violence in other countries. It just seems to me that the number and severity of high violence crimes isn't on the same level as other equivalent countries, not even those with similar income disparities or ethnicity/segregation issues.

In the UK, your average mugging isn't what I've heard repeatedly from different colleagues and what's happened to themselves, family or friends.

At least if I'm mugged in Milton Keynes it's fairly unlikely that it'll be an armed gang who's planned to kill my dog beforehand, and who'll mug me for my crappy watch and mobile while threatening and possibly killing children.

To those people saying crime is in every country, it's not the same league at all.

Every SA I've been friends with plans to / has now made the move out to other countries if they have the means and money to do so.

Not lived there so can’t give any advice on that. But after a holiday in SA a few years ago, I fell in love with the country, particularly Cape Town and I can’t wait for the opportunity to go again and would happily take my kids too! Obviously a holiday is different to living there and maybe I’m being massively naive, but I’m baffled by how many people have commented that they wouldn’t even visit the place…