To wonder whether menstrual and menopause leave is a good thing?

[prettyvisitors]

name changed as this involves my work, so I don’t want to be identified.

My company are currently looking into their policies, and have been asked by some staff to consider making changes or additions to various policies. We have a very active women’s network at work, which is a great part of working for my company as there’s a space to discuss women’s issues in and out of work, and it creates a lovely atmosphere. Some members of the group have asked SLT to look into offering specific menstrual and menopause leave, which is a new concept although is being offered at some other companies. The idea is you will get some paid leave on top of normal sick leave to accommodate women’s health issues.

Am I being unreasonable to feel uncomfortable with this? When I’ve seen discussions of it prior to this conversation at work I’ve not liked it, as I don’t love the idea that women need “special time off” from work just simply because they’re women. I’m worried it becomes more of a way for men to not hire us, in the same way maternity leave clearly still impacts women in the workplace. Our workplace already has a generous fully paid sick leave allowance and a very flexible working policy with complete working from home if you want to, as and when, so I feel that a lot of menstrual issues can be covered in this way under the standard policy without needing to target women. But then again, I know I really benefit from and enjoy more open discussion of these things at our work, so maybe this is just the next step?

I don’t know, my thoughts aren’t fully formed enough to discuss them in our women’s group yet as some people are very passionate about it, and I don’t want to upset them or make them feel against something when I don’t really know how I feel.

Wondering if anyone else has any better ideas than me on it?

Yabu and clearly very lucky. You clearly haven't suffered from conditions like crippling endometriosis etc.

I have had severe endo for years. took ages to get referred, the ages to be seen by gynae and once referred for complex surgery, another 2 years. If it was only that easy seeing the GP.

My company has been discussing the subject too and a lot of people feel that it'll be abused.

Personally I think WFH should be more flexible for those with periods; people shouldn't be penalised for sick leave (ie the Bradford Scale) and the peri/full menopause should all be looked at sympathetically if backed up my medical evidence.

I can definitely see a place for it but it's a shame that people are more demanding with the better employers and seldom stand up the bad ones

It's a terrible idea.

For every genuine person you're going to get a dozen more that take the piss.

It's just another reason to women less employable.

What medical evidence could you get?

Well lucky fucking you that you've never had to deal with debilitating periods. Meanwhile in the real world many women, myself included, suffer with crippling pain, fainting episodes due to said pain and very heavy bleeding that spills through to my clothing at times. I've had to wear period pants, a pad and a tampon at times. Sorry for being someone you consider pathetic. Do you know how hard it is to get a referral for endometriosis, let alone treatment?

Gosh I know what you mean with this. My employer is really amazing in so many different ways - very ahead of the curve with all types of flexibility and leave and creating a better work life balance. And even then people complain! But people I know are at companies that are horrendous and borderline illegal sometimes and no one can say anything. It feels hard to change a bad system but easy to push a good one.

No, women are still fighting to be taken on as equal to men in both ability and productivity. We don't need to be set back by rules for employers to give time off for 'women's issues'. That takes us back to a time when women didn't get proper jobs because they would be quitting when they got married or had to look after kids.

If a person is having severe problems with something like endometriosis then it should be a medical/sick leave absence. The failure of the health service to take proper action shouldn't be absorbed by employers...unless the woman is already taking a lower salary to compensate for her gender 🙁

I am surprised by the broadly negative views expressed above, there are some interesting points.

I think there are lots of cross over issues which are probably mostly covered by the Equality Act but understanding that can be complicated as it isn't necessarily obvious. So legislation or internal policy that makes the right clear may be helpful.

For example, serious menopausal symptoms are likely already covered by disability legislation. However is it really preferable that menopause be considered a disability than have specific protection (which may even mirror the disability test) which may be easier for employees and employers to understand?

Also, a person should be able to take sick leave if they are going through a miscarriage. And a reasonable employer would discount that absence from the absence record either because it relates to pregnancy or because otherwise it may amount to indirect sex discrimination.

Menstrual leave won't affect most women, as most women are able to continue working through it. Having it 'officially' hived off from sickness absence for those who need to seems quite helpful to me. I don't agree that it would be significantly abused.

@PurpleSteak the comment was off the top of my head but if women have crippling periods etc I would think they're not suffering in silence and have a medical history, for instance endrimetriosis (sorry, can't spell) I'm not sure companies would accept such a policy without something like that.

Don't bite my head off, I'm not the one you need to persuade.

We should encourage employers to spend money to save money. If they paid for private treatment, (as a taxable staff benefit) how much would this save in sickness absence, sickness monitoring and following the disciplinary process when someones sickness hits triggers and ultimately losing experienced staff and having to replace them?

Employers should also have a policy to deal with long term/chronic conditions as these can trigger the DDA. A condition like Endometriosis could fall within this.

I wasn't biting your head off, I was just wondering how your system might work. Even if you could get evidence that you're suffering with "menopause" how would you prove which days you needed off?

Like I said it was off the cuff. But on the subject of menopause I had days where I was an emotional basket case, others where I was fine. Prove that? No, I couldn't but a 50 something female under performing is worthy of conversation with a line manager and a bit of leeway.

Ive had days off for severe period pain over the years - I was ill and unable to work. But only occasionally (once or twice a year maybe)? And at the time I didn’t get sick pay anyway. I haven’t had a job that required me to do anything dangerous or that I couldn’t do on codeine. So most of the time I’ve been able to carry on, but it’s really hard when you can’t get up and go to the loo as needed. I think employers ought to be aware of problems that may arise that aren’t just being sick enough to need to be off work.

in general though I think frankness about why time off is needed, with options for flexible working and hours where possible, is better than specific allocated leave.

My company does have this! It technically gets recorded as sick but doesn't count towards your sick leave - I think it's two weeks, but you can get signed off for more if you need it.

I don’t think the vast majority of women would take the piss.
I do think misogynists would use it as an excuse to discriminate against women.
I don’t think we should accept menstrual issues so debilitating that you can’t work as “normal woman stuff”- at that level it’s a medical problem and should be treated like any other medical problem.

Would you say the same about sick leave during pregnancy not counting towards performance though? Because really it's the same argument

Look how quickly we all turn on one another with the ‘I’ve had a worse time than you’ race. Imagine how that plays out in a female-heavy office, hospitality or retail environment where others will have to pick up the additional work when this leave is regularly taken and, potentially, abused by those who truly don’t understand just how debilitating some conditions associated with periods can be.

I had painful periods with flooding, often having to change clothes. A couple of times a year it would be particularly bad and I’d need a day off work. Compared to my friend who had severe migraines, sickness and pain every month I feel I got off lightly. I certainly didn’t feel I was out of the ordinary. I don’t begrudge any woman the understanding she needs to deal with the extreme end of the scale but I do think sick leave would cover it.

I am now menopausal and last year was a bit of a nightmare at work (forgetfulness, hot flushes & low mood leading) but I really don’t feel that, for me personally, leave would have been beneficial. I told my boss (male) what was going on and, although the conversation was quite awkward and embarrassing, I’m glad I did. I have had lots of support from older co-workers and I’ve been able to talk through how I’m feeling which is much better than sitting at home on my own.

Come back to me when you have endometriosis and let me then why it's unnecessary or not a good thing!

But presuming she was taking sick leave, that could have been covered on the sickness review. She didn't need to call up and state she was taking menopause leave again this month.

I was told that came under pregnancy related sickness when I had a miscarriage.

Treating women properly for these kind of issues is much more important.

I agree with you @prettyvisitors

Saying "just get treatment" doesn't make you sound old school, it makes you sound ill-informed.

I don't have particularly troublesome periods so wouldn't need this leave, but I'm aware of how long it can take for women to have serious issues taken seriously, investigated, diagnosed, and a suitable way of managing it found.

For people talking about miscarriage leave

www.acas.org.uk/time-off-for-bereavement/stillbirth-or-miscarriage

"If a miscarriage happens in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy, any sickness absence the birth mother needs to take is likely to be considered a 'pregnancy-related illness'."

This is what happened when I had a miscarriage, and I'd push back on any employer who tried to count it as regular sickness.

Obviously pregnancy related illness isn't a paid leave, but it really shouldn't be used against you in any way when it comes to measuring sickness absence.

It's tricky because for some women periods and menopause is really awful and like an illness with a lot of pain, migraines, severe bleeding, exhaustion and even implications for mental health. My periods can be bad, with very heavy flow (flooding sometimes) initially and a lot of pain and exhaustion as well as menstrual migraines for the first few days and my periods last 5-7 days while some women get light bleeding with no major symptoms and they are done by day 3.

Same with menopause some women sail though it others really suffer. I think some provision for women who do have these issues would be useful and help women stay in the workforce. I know some people think it marks our biology out as weak but women by the very nature of our sex are different and our reproductive capacity comes at a price for lots of women and I think we should be open about that especially if you are a woman who doesn't suffer in this way, have some compassion for those who do.