Non religious school

[Chickenkeev]

My daughter is going into 6th class next year ( apologies, i don't know the British equivalent, but it's the last year before secondary). I'm lost as to whether i should hold out for the non religious secondary school which is the other side of the city, or just send her to one over this side that is religious. We went above and beyond to get her to non catholic primaries so it seems crap to throw that away but equally it wouldn't be great to foist a long commute on her. Help please!

I'm also in Ireland. Given the choice my DC would've gone to ET schools, however there are none in my area. So mine went to the local primary and secondary, both of which were Catholic schools, because there was literally no other choice. It's actually been fine, as young adults all three are complete atheists having utterly rejected the religious teaching in school. They've taken their lead from me, a lapsed Prod, and DH, a very lapsed Catholic, and decided none of it is for them at all. So what I'm trying to say is that they'll take their lead from their parents and at secondaryin terms of religion the school matters less than you might think. Going for convenience of location over religious ethos worked out for us - I was more interested in knowing who my children's friends' parents were, tbh. You can do that in a local school but it's harder if they have to commute across town.

Thanks. I'm feeling more and more that i'll have to suck it up. The ET is so far away and the traffic here is woeful altogether. It's a quality of life thing. I'm just sad because we managed to avoid the church thus far , despite two house moves. Moving isn't an option now though so I have to be realistic.

I live in Ireland. I don't think it's a good idea to have a child travel for an hour plus each way to school so they can attend et school. Also most schools will only accept children within a certain catchment area. That catchment area could be a few miles.
Catholic schools now have mainly lay principal and staff. You can request that your child does not take part in a region class.
You need to find out what schools are in your catchment area.
Rather than focus on the catholic ethos I look at what the school is like, the subjects it offers and what you notice about the school. Work out which school would suit your child personality, acedimic ability, their interests and apply their.
I know in a lot of places people apply for secondary school in Oct and find out before Xmas what school their child got into.

@TwirlBar unfortunately my visits to 3 local mulit -demo schools were jarring. Crucifixes, Bible's in the multi faith room, not one other symbol. Reference to weekly assemblies where they started with a prayer.

When my son asked at the open day how they incorporate those of other and no religion, he was snapped at that they would sort something. My 11 year old son had more knowledge on how to be inclusive then a management team of a so called multi.

I hope things have changed in the past four years. But please be aware a lot experience of schools is they rebrand as being multi denomination but don't change.

One conversation I had with a secretary of the so called Multi was eye opening. When I was enquiring about places, I was assured that it was a multi in name only.

So while there are officially schools identified as multi I would be very sceptical. Having the default as Catholic is not multi denominational it is the bare legal minimum requirement.

@Friedgreentomatoestoo I have been an active member of a number of start up schools across the country since 2006 is that good enough. I work in education , 3rd level and some of my work means I see the negative impact that can be left on adults if in a setting that is conflict with your values. It is changing but it is not consistent.

Two months ago my 16 year old niece was publicly humiliated at her convent school for having the audacity to have an opinion that differs from the church. There is no other school format in her county. Her parents are professionals who want her to have a formal education.

Those of us outside the Catholic ethos are still treated like second class citizens when it comes to provision of education.
Ireland should hang it's head in shame.

@Chickenkeev sorry to derail your thread it just is infuriating that people can be so small minded. I hope whatever school she goes to is a happy place and remember she had a great foundation and that won't leave her.

@Marblessolveeverything
Two months ago my 16 year old niece was publicly humiliated at her convent school for having the audacity to have an opinion that differs from the church.

I suppose it depends what she said and how she expressed it.

If she said "Sister Mary Claire is wizened old bag who prays to lumps of wood and wants us to do the same and I'm not doing it" I can see that would go down like a lead balloon.

But if she respectfully questioned something, then that was unacceptable and shouldn't have happened.

What did the parents do and what was the result?

You had very good reasons for a non-religious primary. They’re still good reasons. Hold out for non-religious. Lots of kids commute, it’s really not a hardship.

That's why I asked what was actually said and what the parents did about it.

Are all schools absolutely identical to how they were twenty years ago? Society is different, people are different, staff are different. Laws are different.

Her experience can't be the same as yours as around two decades have passed since then and she has a completely different set of parents to you.

It's OK to be watchful rather than leaping in with rage for what happened to you decades ago (and to many other people before that), as it's absolutely clear when a parent is bringing their own issues and experiences into a response, rather than what has actually happened. She could be very happy there, she could be happier somewhere where you aren't primed to explode at the first detention or assembly where they start by saying a prayer - but if that's not a realistic option, then it's either EHE or wait and see.

Also in Ireland (area with many schools but not enough places). Check eligibility criteria for all the schools...this can vary from school to school within a local area and can lead to certain children having no "priority" at a given school eg some go by address, some by primary attended, some sibling enrollment/past pupil. Also check application dates for previous years...depending on your area some may have already passed for 2024/5 but usually Octoberish time before start where I am. They should have published a document each year if oversubscribed which shows how many students from each category got in so you will know if you stand a chance...we used this to discount schools. Go to all open evenings with your child...I know they're "putting on a show" but helps you get a feel for the school. You may be surprised by your old school and may discount your preferred school because of it. If in an oversubscribed area, apply to all...you don't want to end up without a place. I think Limerick is only place with a common enrollment form/system. We were pro ET, ET primaries but children chose otherwise for secondary even after visiting the ET secondary. All catholic schools we visited had large numbers of students of other/no religion. In a Catholic school they may have to do RE for junior cert and while weighted a bit to Catholicism, learn about many major world religions as well as values/ethics etc

@Friedgreentomatoestoo I wont give details Ireland is tiny and it was the talk of the small town. The nun ridiculed her, referenced the sin of pride and insubordinate behaviour - it was a neighbour who told the family (an SNA) and assured her parents that their daughter was as respectful and polite - as she always is - she is on the young side of her age. It wasn't an insult it was in the vein of respectfully questioned something.

The parents made a complaint they were told that the school didn't want to upset the nun and sure "niece" was grand. They have raised the complaint with the BOM. I assume there will be ignored as previous issues have been.

The core of the issue is there is no other school that is the reality and parents work full time in caring profession so no money to move to bigger town/city. They can't nor want to home school - why on earth should they ? there is a constitutional right to state provided education.

I deal with the fallout of these situations in a professional capacity - and I was dealing with them 20 years ago - these should not be happening today. Yes a lot of schools have progressed but not all and the department of education should be monitoring and taking interventional action to clamp this nonsense down.

My experience of Catholic school is in England so very possibly too different to be relevant, in which case ignore. But I went to a bog standard comprehensive from 11-16. No religious affiliation but like all schools in England has an element of CofE compulsory worship. It was fine, but a massive exam factory and utterly dull. No apparent interest in the under-achieving.

Switched to Catholic school for 6th form and it was totally different. They were interested in us as people not just grades. We were encouraged to spend some study time in the community doing charity things and generally being supported to be far more rounded individuals than the previous school was interested in producing. Everyone was encouraged to participate in worship but by making it our own.

The parents made a complaint they were told that the school didn't want to upset the nun and sure "niece" was grand.

That's just a 'whitewash' answer.

Was this a formal complaint in line with the grievance procedure of the school and did they raise it in writing and ask for a written response?

They have raised the complaint with the BOM.

"The board of management manages the school on behalf of the patron and is accountable to the patron and the Minister. The board must uphold the characteristic spirit (ethos) of the school and is accountable to the patron for so doing.
The principal is responsible for the day-to-day management of the school, including providing guidance and direction to the teachers and other staff of the school and is accountable for that management."

I assume there will be ignored as previous issues have been.

They don't have an option to ignore it if it has been summitted via the correct procedure in writing.

https://www.gov.ie/en/policy-information/parental-complaints/

I suspect that the parents didn't follow the correct procedure or allowed themselves to be "fobbed off".

Being the talk of the town for something that was said in school seems a stretch. I am trying to imagine just how small that town is.

@Marblessolveeverything Was this nun a teacher, currently on the teaching staff?

Don't send her to the religious school. This is an easy choice. It is crazy they even exist in this day and age.

I wondered about that. Sounds like 'small town mentality' to me. You get that in rural places in England where people have nothing to do and all day to do it in.

It all seems like a 'storm in a tea-cup to me'.
When the poster talked about 'public humiliation' I was expecting to hear she'd been stripped naked, paraded through the streets and then whipped in the public square with Rosary beads. 🙄

Why is it crazy?
As soon as the all of parents in Ireland stop wanting religious education or stop sending their children to religious schools and stop giving their free time to managing religious schools they will not exist.

But if they do that, they, not the State have the primary obligation to set up a new schooling system ( like ET ) or to homeschool.

CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND

EDUCATION
ARTICLE 42

1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

3 1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

4 The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

It’s crazy because children have the right to an education free of bias from their parents religion. Parents can still teach religion alongside a secular education, but children should be able to access education without religion regardless of their parents beliefs

69% of Irish people identified as Catholic in the 2022 census. So not that crazy as long as there's choice...which unfortunately there often isn't, most especially at primary level. But OP does seem to have a choice here...perhaps? Applications probably haven't gone into either school yet, her DC may not yet get a place in both schools.

I'd go to both open days OP, apply to both schools in the coming months. See where you stand then. I would suspect the RC school has changed since you attended though so things might not be as bad as you fear.

And do a bit of research too as a pp advised. Schools are inspected regularly, at a whole school level and at a subject level, and the results available online. Check them out.

Oh I see. you think that you should get to impose your faith on the population.

That Parents should be seen as babysitters.

Should the school kick out the girl in a Hijab or one wearing a cross?

Pick whichever is the best school. Visit your old school and try and look at it with fresh eyes and try to speak to people who have children currently attending there. I was all set to send my DD to my local ET school and when I visited it and met some of the parents I ran for the hills and I'm delighted we went with the local national school. There will be no nuns nowadays teaching in the school and as it's a secondary school there will be very little religion. Are there any other schools in the area that wouldn't be your old school but not as far a commute as the ET school.

Apply to both and then see if you get into the ET first or find out where you are on the waiting list. ALL schools here now go on sibling policy first and then lottery. You also have to be in the catchment area for the school to apply to begin with but you clearly have no other children in secondary school so it will be lottery only. Also with the catholic school the fact you went there means nothing as the rules changed some years ago.

FYI mine all went to ET primary and are all at ET secondary now. I would have cried if my eldest did not get a place because with him being eligible gave a foot in the door for the others.

Also with the catholic school the fact you went there means nothing as the rules changed some years ago.

Being a child of a past pupil still matters in our local Catholic secondary school? Having a sibling there is more important, but a parent as a past pupil is still high up on their list of criteria. There have been calls to end this aspect of admissions (and certainly it is unfair and not all schools use it) but I was not aware the law had actually changed in this area, has it? If it's happened it must have been in the past year or so, because this criterion was applied to pupils who started Sept 22.