In demand teachers should be on a higher pay grade

[Winterday1991]

Teachers who have high level degrees from good quality universities and teach in demand subjects such as maths, physics, chemistry etc should be paid at a rate equivalent to what their peers would earn in the private sector. For example starting salaries of £50k.

As I understand it, the current teacher pay scale means that drama, music teachers and low quality graduates are paid the same as high quality teachers. As teaching has low barrier to entry for graduates, and there is a shortage of teachers for certain subjects surely salaries should be treated as they would be in the private sector and paid the market rate. Why does the government not implement this to get more high quality graduates into teaching?

People in the private sector are judged on what they can earn for the business. Even when they are required to have STEM degrees, this isn’t all they are judged on.

Govt involvement is education is the problem.

If regulation were lifted and competition allowed from new suppliers then you could find the right price for your services.

Because having a high quality degree from a top university doesn't necessarily mean you will have the skill set to be a good teacher

@Winterday1991 you have triggered a lot of teachers. Guess you are either right or wrong then.

No, just wrong. Wrong and offensive.

I don't know I mean it's clumsily worded and I don't agree that the uni matters as such, but there are definitely some subjects that have a harder time attracting teachers for a myriad of reasons and these should perhaps be addressed separately. Computing, the sciences and maths for example. I don't think they're more important as an all round education is important and there are lots of very talented teachers across all subjects; but when you can work on stuff you're passionate about (sciences), earn a load with great prospects (maths and IT) then what can you do to encourage people to teach?

For some subjects the pay and opportunities are better in teaching.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl
I might be wrong but I imagine what they're getting at is the job security that comes with a being a teacher. It's extremely difficult for a teacher to be performance-managed out for generally poor level of teaching skills (gross misconduct is another matter), whereas in the private sector they'd get made redundant a lot more easily. Unionisation etc is behind this. Not a bad thing necessarily, but does mean there can be some piss poor teachers hanging around far longer than they would in other sectors.

Obviously, the majority are fine/good/excellent etc. And there's a balance to be struck between job-for-life security of public sector vs competitive nature of private sector, etc etc.

I can assure you that that they are not on MPS

Uh?

You can't pay your way out of recruiting more teachers, at least not in the way you're arguing OP.

If you offered any of the finance people I know a pay bump to go teach standard deviation to a bunch of surly 15yo, they'd laugh in your face and go back to their spreadsheets.

In fact, I do know someone who made the move from finance to teaching - and took a massive paycut to do so. Because it was what she really wanted to do.

I've worked with loads of Mps maths teachers.

I would argue that having a first in maths and a master's or PhD could actually mean than someone is an absolutely shite maths teacher.

Worked with an nqt, young guy who was really highly qualified. Was not able to understand why the students didn't "get it" struggled to make new concepts accessible as he just understood how to do it himself.

So no I don't agree with you. He left teaching to work in accounting. Taking his £27000 bursary

You’re just spouting nonsense to whip up opinion in a way typical of people who have zero understanding of the realities of teaching and schools.

This is one of the daftest things I’ve heard. How on earth would you implement it? You clearly have no idea how schools work. As other OPs have said while subject knowledge is important it doesn’t necessarily make you a great teacher. The solution is to make it more atand it will therefore become more selective. My school is a popular academic independent school In a popular city. That means we have lots of well qualified candidates applying for jobs so can be selective.

Those saying that this is the stupidest thing ever need to be aware that it is exactly what Gillian Keegan is promoting as the solution to the teacher recruitment crisis.

Including paying primary less than secondary.

Here https://schoolsweek.co.uk/keegan-keen-to-look-at-varying-teacher-pay-by-subject-says-union-boss/

I said the op was a pissed Gillian Keegan fairly early on.
Looks like I was right...

@Echio could you perhaps tell us how you would judge whether a teacher had a poor level of teaching skills?

It's extremely difficult for a teacher to be performance-managed out for generally poor level of teaching skills

And yet it is exceptionally easy to manage a teacher out for whatever reason SLT decide to take against them.

As with all jobs, there is a natural spectrum of capability and performance. How that's assessed - well, my inexpert opinion probably isn't worth a lot compared with the mountains of research and evidence that will exist on performance management.

If you are asking me, though, it'd be an assessment that takes into account various targets, measures and broader values. Like, my PMRs in private/charity sector have taken into account a mix of measuring the skills/performance in the nitty-gritty of the role, as well as wider elements like commitment to the values of the organisation, commitment to CPD, etc etc. There are dynamic ways of tracking performance that reveal long-term trends beyond the short-term ups and downs of year groups etc. I'm sure these things exist in the teaching profession.

But my point was the ability to act in a timely and emphatic way when there is poor performance is much harder than in private sector. I think a bit of movement towards a centre-ground from both ends of the spectrum would be a good thing. Likewise, the ability to reward an excellent teacher is also much more limited. Swings and roundabouts!

How would you assess it yourself?

The teacher with the highest level of qualifications I knew was completely incompetent in the classroom, to the extent that I spent a great deal of time in his classroom trying to alleviate the chaos that went on and of which he was mostly oblivious.

The most effective, charismatic and competent teacher I knew, was a drama graduate I employed as a teaching assistant and then persuaded into teaching. She had effortless classroom management skills, could explain in a way that every child could understand, was supportive to all of them and managed productions with flair and skill. Oh and her students all achieved high GCSE grades.

I know which I’d prefer teaching my children.

You don't know what you're talking about, Echio

So you have no idea how to judge whether or not someone has poor teaching skills.

How would you identify who an excellent teacher was, perhaps you could try and explain that?

I'm not the one assessing so I do not need to know how to do it.

I'm not sure why your questions are in this tone, my points were not about how something should be measured, they were about how there is a difference in the treatment of performance between public and private sector.

I won't respond any more. I've no idea what your issue really is and I don't think we'll get to the bottom of it in these exchanges!

@noblegiraffe , to literally quote myself, I am no expert! Hahahaha!!!

This is a forum for exchange of views. Some have been far more bonkers than mine on this thread. Have a lovely afternoon :)

No, you are no expert, but you are here pontificating regardless.

So to be clear, you think excellent teachers should be rewarded more and low grade teachers removed even though you have no idea how one would judge which teachers fell into which category.

Indeed you don't even know if it is possible to accurately measure the contribution of an individual teacher to a students leearning.