In demand teachers should be on a higher pay grade

[Winterday1991]

Teachers who have high level degrees from good quality universities and teach in demand subjects such as maths, physics, chemistry etc should be paid at a rate equivalent to what their peers would earn in the private sector. For example starting salaries of £50k.

As I understand it, the current teacher pay scale means that drama, music teachers and low quality graduates are paid the same as high quality teachers. As teaching has low barrier to entry for graduates, and there is a shortage of teachers for certain subjects surely salaries should be treated as they would be in the private sector and paid the market rate. Why does the government not implement this to get more high quality graduates into teaching?

Physics is one of the most important core subjects in the world. It's importance lies in the fact that countries who have highly skilled graduates in this subject and Engineering disciplines can hold leverage over other countries, however in the UK today at A-level it's popularity below Sociology, Art and Design and Business Studies on the popularity list. That should worry you

as I said upthread, I am sure I am not the only teacher who finds this the opposite of our experience. I work in a school which we, as linguists, jokingly call 'the stem school'. Getting students to do languages at GCSE, even with parental support (of which we have plenty as it's an independent school) is an uphill struggle. Even worse at A Level. We have plenty of students studying STEM subjects who probably would get better results if they shifted to the arts and ignored their parental pressure. But fact of the matter is, too many parents see no future whatsoever in non-stem subjects and will not support their children pursuing them. I am sure we are not unique in that regard.

yes, it's worrying that subjects like sociology and business studies are more popular than physics. But part of that, I am sure, is the issue with the teacher shortages. I would give both sociology and business studies at shot at exam level if asked to (and indeed, do teach at GCSE outside of my specialism). I wouldn't know where to start with physics.

I don't subscribe to the view that physics teachers are more valuable than any other teacher. The trick is valuing all teachers and allowing students to be individuals and having them puruse their own passions with guidance from the adults around them.

It appears that oodles of degree’s don’t necessarily equip one to Get A Life, let alone be A Good Teacher.

Degrees!
Obviously my Maths degree (from a very well thought of university) didn’t equip me to deal with the horrors of autocorrect.

Thought we had moved on from this. So glad the people charged with educating the next generation is thought of so highly. (I am being sarcastic in case this is missed)

Yeah, the school where I work is also a bit of a STEM factory. My first three degrees spanned the overlap between sciences and humanities, and I've acquired a couple more humanities qualifications since then.

I used to teach a STEM subject, now I teach a couple of humanities subjects, and personally I find that the latter require far better subject knowledge "beyond the spec" to deal with all of the students' questions. But that's just me.

"The UK, Europe and US always, always does the design" - Britain's going to lose this skill very quickly because Physics has been a dying subject for the last 12 years in UK schools and as a consequence there aren't enough native British students going on to study Physics and Engineering at university in Britain. Never before in Britain's history has there been such a deficit in one of humanities most valued subjects. India's on the opposite trajectory.

"the calibre of courses and grads in India outside of iit is poor"
That certainly was the case in the past but even I'm taken back by India's rapid development and the quality of facilities and lab equipment that students have access to even in non-IIT universities. It's simply a matter of funding and investment. Because of improved levels of funding to Indian universities due to improved commerce in the country, including through engineering and manufacturing, STEM students in Indian universities are getting access to better equipment.

The UK is nothing more than a "cash cow" with a strong currency. That's all. Even I, as someone born, brought up and educated in Britain, believe it's better to yank money out of Britain and pump it back to India for investment because it'sa high potential land. The UK is finished. It has underfunded public services. Even Britain's Police forces are corrupt to the core.

The number of people taking physics A level is rising. What is showing no rise whatsoever is the number of people signing up to teach physics.

I genuinely don't understand what your recruitment strategy for physics teachers is, when you seem to want all graduates to work in industry. Which ones become teachers?

I think they're just posting as an outlet to rant about their niche area of interest/work, rather than engage in the actual topic of the thread.

Agreed.

My comment about human rights abuses was more aimed at china than India. We can talk about the legacy of empire all we like but that really has little to do with what is happening in heavy industry right now. India benefits from low pay and low safety standards compared to the UK and that reduces the cost base - this has nothing to do with a colonial legacy and everything to do with the choices made by the Indian government. I've toured a number of Indian production facilities and they are nowhere near the standard they would need to be to operate here in the UK.

As for failing industries, most if it is market forces, but the UK government has also compounded this by making poor choices on industrial policy over the years.

However, there are a lot of international engineering consultancies that operate from the UK or with major bases in the UK. UK engineers are well respected globally.

As for recruitment of teachers, the problem is obviously low pay and poor working conditions. This is true across the sector. Specific issues with physics are a relatively small number of grads available and the fact that in my view a lower % of hard science grads feel a vocation to teach in the first place.

"too many parents see no future whatsoever in non-stem subjects and will not support their children pursuing them"

That's down to the perception that most folks have of STEM subjects as being those that have good career prospects and high earning potential. If you studied subjects like medicine, dentistry, veterinary medicine economics or maths then you're pretty much guaranteed a good job with a comfortable salary, potentially.

"I don't subscribe to the view that physics teachers are more valuable than any other teacher"

It's basics economics my friend. If something is in short supply then its value increases. Right now, no core subject is in greater defecit in Britain. Speaking as someone with a PhD in Physics from a top 10 Russell Group university, I couldn't care less that Physics is a dying subject in Britain. If the UK government wants my help then it needs to empty out its pockets in order to adequately remunerate me.

Have you got any qualifications in Physics though?

It's basics economics my friend. If something is in short supply then its value increases. Only in a free market, surely?

I taught Physics up to A-level/Oxbridge prep for 20 years before moving sideways to the humanities part of my academic background. What's changed about the job is more about conditions/workload than pay, and that's across the board in all subjects.

Glad that @Physicsgrad1984 doesn't care that Physics is a "dying subject," because it isn't.

😀

🤭

I couldn't care less that Physics is a dying subject in Britain.

Your own words on this thread would suggest otherwise, my friend.

You could argue that the UK government has been applying free market principles to attract grads into teaching. Why else would they be offering the highest tax free bursaries to Physics grads like me and practically nothing to History, English and Biology grads. It's because grads like me are in short supply and we know that we are in a stronger position to bargain with the DoE. We know that the government is desperate for grads like me, not so much for Biology or English grads because they are in plentiful supply. We know that we have the DoE by their proverbial testicles and any time we so choose, we can squeeze our grip, i.e leave the profession and move into another profession like I have (I now work as a data scientist for a private bank) Apologies for the offence caused by the analogy.

"Glad that @Physicsgrad1984 doesn't care that Physics is a "dying subject," because it isn't."
Really? Well then good luck meeting your Physics recruitment and retention targets for the next 12 years.

Why else would they be offering the highest tax free bursaries to Physics grads like me and practically nothing to History, English and Biology grads.

Er....Biology gets £20k, English £15k. Not "practically nothing".

Physics gets £27k, same as maths, computing and chemistry. Geography and languages get £25k.

Yeah but do those subjects get to play weird sex games (for no discernable outcome on either side) with the Department for Education, eh, eh?

We know that we have the DoE by their proverbial testicles and any time we so choose, we can squeeze our grip, i.e leave the profession and move into another profession like I have

Out of interest, how much experience of teaching did you have before you left the profession? How did you bargain with the DoE?

Maths and Physics are the two most popular A-level subjects amongst boys. (Admittedly, not so great for girls.)

By the way, @Physicsgrad1984, I do completely agree that there is a crisis in recruiting physics teachers. I think that many of the other posters here would also agree with that! Why I'm being a little combative is that some of the things you've said seem to be misleading, or based on misapprehensions. Education level seems to be only loosely correlated with ability to teach.

The problem is a systemic one; too few teachers makes things harder on those remaining (cf. medical professionals, especially GPs). I don't think that pay is the main factor. What the sector needs is a massive injection of case in reducing class sizes, repairing buildings, and being sufficiently well-staffed to deal with the issues that arise. That won't happen merely by increasing the pay of physics grads! Why pay to refill the barrel when you could fix the leak instead?

Of course, other solutions are available and I'm always willing to admit that I could be wrong. Surely, that's the key lesson in the study of the sciences?

"case" should be "cash." Oops!

I have read this thread with interest and to be upfront, I’m not a teacher and never have been and I have a degree in maths. (Degree subject seems important on this thread). I read @noblegiraffe comments on MN with great interest and find them really helpful in understanding the problems education.

I totally get that teaching is a completely different skill to writing an English essay/doing maths and that being good at one is no guarantee of being good at the other. I also get that finding a subject easy is not always helpful when trying to explain a concept to someone who finds it hard (witness me trying to help my daughter with maths). What I don’t follow though is people implying that a high degree result is a disadvantage and that people with a lower Alevel/degree result make better teachers. Aren’t we saying that teaching is a separate skill?

Also a 6 in maths GCSE can equate to about 50% and a C at Alevel 60%. - that allows for the person to not understand a large part of the specification. Can a person teach what they don’t understand?

And for what it’s worth, my view is that no learning advances in isolation. Intellectual progress needs all areas of the brain and skills and so we should value breath of knowledge far more than this government seems to understand. So music, arts, sciences, languages need to be developed together in a young person’s brain if we are to produce top class musicians / scientists / authors etc

I was also interested in the comments on how difficult it is to differentiate between different teachers in terms of performance related pay. My kids seem to have no difficulty in judging who are the best teachers.

@Lokipinoki I agree with pretty much everything you say!

I was also interested in the comments on how difficult it is to differentiate between different teachers in terms of performance related pay. My kids seem to have no difficulty in judging who are the best teachers.

This is a really tricky one, because there are so many different versions of "best" floating around. The teachers that are engaging and popular are not necessarily those who obtain the highest results. Consider a maths department; in an ideal world all of the teachers would be engaging and student-centred. However, in the real world, there is a range, and it's probably "better" for the department and for the students if the "best" teachers are put with the lower-ability groups. "Value added" is measured, sure, but it doesn't tend to include things like enthusiasm for the subject or continuation rates in non-compulsory subjects.

Kids certainly know which teachers they like; of course they do. Whether they're in a position to judge who's "best" at teaching their subject is questionable. How would they have that kind of overview? And what about all the aspects that take place outside the classroom?

There's such a wide ability range in GCSE and A-level classrooms these days.

I am probably when on form the "best" teacher of the higher end of the ability range and I'm also good with SEN (pretty much entirely because I've got a child with SEN myself so I've thought about barriers to learning a lot).

I'm definitely not the "best" teacher of the lower end of the ability range. I wish they wouldn't take my tricky, technical subject tbh, especially if they're not genuinely interested in it...Still do my best of course.

So even within the same class, different DCs could have quite different experiences.