Is the whole ’incel’ thing more about the mindset, rather what it used to mean..?

[MrsStrangeViews]

I.e single men who didn’t have sex/girlfriend?

I see people mentioning incels more and more, and about angry men, who might feel entitled to women, but a lot of time angry/misogynystic/violent men do have girlfriends, wives , kids, so make it about ’celibate’ men doesn't make any sense.

So when people do talk about incels, do they mean angry/misogynystic men in general?

You’ve probably got a point.

Although the original meaning as “involuntarily celibate” - i.e. single men who don’t have sex but who want to have a relationship and/or sex. I’m sure there are lots of men who are single who don’t necessarily want either (or at least don’t feel entitled them).

It's a specific sub culture of misogyny though OP. These incels have their own online forums, language etc. it's insidious.

This is half way what I mean.
At some point it was just men who were involuntarily single/celibate.
Then there were couple of violent attacks.
And that became the known ’incel’.
Often they were (what they wrote online) angry,violent and demanded women to like them.

And now it seems to be two things. Any man who doesn’t agree with everything women say.
And also shaming single people, perhaps don’t have sex either.
And assuming they are angry or misogynystic about it.
This seems to be how it’s seen now.
And the stigma of being single / not having sex is already bad, so people like to jump and mock bow for being a so called incel.

Rather than focusing on the men who actually are angry at women. More often than not they are in relationships/married/have kids.

Well, yes, this what I asked.
That it’s how they view women, and men too I guess.
But these men could also be in telationships with women.
So, more about the mindset, not about dating status.

As incel forums built up online and there demographic changes, so did the definition. The definition is still important because of the legal aspects. Let's get it right,there wasn't attacks, there were murders based on icel beliefs. It's like having to define the far right and seperate them from bigoted mantra. Incest don't have sex because their beliefs and treatment of women, make them unattractive. Their views give them mental health issues. It's dangerous to say that this is caused or added to by outside attitudes. It has nothing to do with bad attitudes towards single people.

Rather than focusing on the men who actually are angry at women. More often than not they are in relationships/married/have kids.

I find many can and do focus on both since both are in the realm of misogyny.

I don't hear incel targeted at nice single men.

I suppose it may be being bandied about as a random insult among kids, though I'd be surprised.

Is it being wrongly used against pick up artists and other misogynists who are not celibate? Possibly.

Typically incels are Reddit/4chan dwelling men/late teens who don't fit into societal norms of what is conventionally attractive both in terms of appearance and personality. I think the phrase used a lot is "terminally online". They are very socially awkward, sometimes (but not always) some where on the spectrum and just don't have a place in society.

I have no sympathy for them. They refuse to change their world view (which if it wasn't so vile would be an admirable quality) or do anything (like have a wash) to improve their lot in life. They almost seem to enjoy wallowing in their rooms and end up in a self perpetuating cycle.

It is a subculture now, a very dangerous one.

Incest don't have sex because their beliefs and treatment of women, make them unattractive.

But this is categorically untrue.
Women in relationships are abused, raped, killed. And their children too.
MN alone, quite a few women in my life are with men who have disgusting views and treat women badly.

men/late teens who don't fit into societal norms of what is conventionally attractive both in terms of appearance and personality. I think the phrase used a lot is "terminally online". They are very socially awkward, sometimes (but not always) some where on the spectrum and just don't have a place in society.

Isin’t this as toxic?
Plenty of girls/women aren’t ’attractive’ or socially akward or shy.
Thinking this harsly about people can’t be helpful.
And it doesn’t mean they are also and automatically angry.

I find is awful and sad to think of other people as having no place in society just because they are unattractive or akward…
That’s just sad.

And my actual point, and question still was more about the misogyny/violence and people wrongly calling thwm incels, rather than mra’s, misonystic, anti-women, etc.

I think incel is an unfair insult of genuinely nice or shy men who might struggle with women because it's become a pejorative word.

Plenty of horrible or misogynistic men out there who are never short of a girlfriend.

That's specifically men who self-identify as "incels" though.

You hear it thrown around a lot now as an insult

It's one of those words that seem to be flexible in their meaning. Like "woke".

It’s an interesting question.

There’s a character in The Archers (long running Radio 4 rural soap) at the moment who the script writers are writing as the general idea of an incel. Very angry and vengeful teenage boy, complicated family background, somewhat isolated amongst his peers, and deeply disrespecting of women. Thing is, he’s no more socially awkward than any other teen, and can be highly engaging when he wants to be. He’s running rings around his family and, as listeners, we’re convinced he’s heading towards committing some truly horrible act.

But whether he’s ‘just’ misogynistic, or actually an incel would be hard to say.

Incels are a sub-section of unpleasant misogynistic men. I agree with the OP that it is a word sometimes misused to refer to men in relationships, which to me is misusing the word and missing the point about incels and their behaviour.

At some point it was just men who were involuntarily single/celibate

I don't think that is true. It was initially a group of men who gave themselves that label, out of a sense of anger about the fact

The phrase 'involuntarily celibate' is an oxymoron
In order to be not celibate someone else has to be willing to have sex with you, this is not something that is it within your control.
An incel is someone who is angry about his inability to dominate women.

I can't remember a time when incels haven't been misogynist-has it ever meant just single men?

I’m not aware of the term incel ever being used to describe normal single men who are ‘unlucky in love’ for want of a better way of putting it.

Incels are specifically a group of young men with low self esteem and massive chips on their shoulders because they believe women are only interested in looks and that they were short changed by nature in that department.

As a result they become frustrated and angry with the outside world and in many cases, due to the pernicious influence of the likes of

Andrew Tate, develop a sense of entitlement that they should be able to take what they want from women (ie sex) or punish them for not wishing to engage with them romantically or sexually.

This hate for the female sex may also extend to the non romantic relationships with by women in their lives eg mothers and sisters.

It’s a very specific subset of misogyny that stands well apart from long term single men.

I agree and disagree. A man can become incel-like in behaviour within a relationship. He will stop making an effort with his self care (I mean basic hygiene), not lift a finger around the home and yet still expect sex. And become angry and near impossible to live with when the woman he’s with won’t (for obvious reasons) go near him. Many incels may be having occasional sex or even paying for it, what they’re demanding is for continuing sex on demand whilst also being catered for in every other aspect.

Many of them are on the spectrum and a huge part of that is being unable to see themselves from someone else perspective. Unfortunately mental health care for those with autism or traits is abysmal, the essential part of male development isn’t supported well and added in developmental delays socially and emotionally it is a melting pot for deviant and angry behaviours. They discover sex but don’t develop the social maturity that comes with getting it - ‘I have sexual feelings now so they should be met regardless of how I act/look/behave’ is something most neurotypical men tend to realise quite quickly won’t get them very far (even if many of them still hold that belief deep down).

If a guy is perpetually single and not moaning about it then this isn’t about them. But any man who moans they don’t understand why they’re single because they’re a ‘nice guy’ is a massive massive red flag. That is the tip of the incel iceberg.

And women in that sub group call themselves Femcels. They are equally as angry and socially awkward and just unpleasant. Nothing is ever their fault.

Society hasn't labelled them as a poor fit, they've labelled themselves as a poor fit. They have purposely ostracised themselves from society because they are so riddled with hate and self loathing.

It's a cult. They are looking for their tribe and they found it.

To my understanding it started woth men who felt they couldn’t ’get’ a girlfriend / sex, or at least not from the ’hot’ one’s.
And the attitude that women own them beauty, dates, sex, marriage and kids - while they don’t have to do or give anything.
So more about the ideology mixed with anger.

But now I see it often used as an insult for anyone being single or not having sex.
Or just disagreeing what a woman is saying.

Meanwhile in the real world, all kinds of men can have anti-women views.
The same that the so-called-incels have, not much change, even if they do have relationships.

You keep missing my point.
Assuming they are angry is part of the problem.
Just because one is single, ugly and/or socially akward, doesn’t mean they are hateful people.

Your thinking is that everyone want and has to conform to amatonormativity and beauty standards or they are angry group of people.
That’s not why thread was about at all.

I’m not here hate or shame ugly/akward/shy/on spectrum people.

Dear @MrsStrangeViews I have never seen anyone being accused of being an incel simply for disagreeing with a woman or for simply being single.

Quite frankly your statement makes me suspect that you are a man who has been accused of being an incel and who is now looking for confirmation that it is them and not you who has done/said something wrong