Are we now responsible for FILs debts now he's passed away?

[DebtAfterDeath]

Really sorry, posted in legal but also here as i know traffic is heavier and i am desperate for advice.
FIL recently passed away ( 5 weeks ago).
Today my husband has found a letter from Ovo stating he owes £3600.
We also believe he had other debs and CCJs but we have no idea on the amounts.
My SIL used the Tell us Once service but Citizens Advise told me today they don't notify people he owes money to and that's our responsibility.
His only estate is the £6000 in his bank when he died (which the bank have already sent to SIL and she has split in half with my husband) and a potential £10k life insurance claim. He privately rented and had nothing else, no valuables and so on.
We are really worried that we may get chased up for money and Citizen's Advise have recommend we register his death in The Gazette. It's going to cost £100 to do it (fine). But nobody I'm talking to seems to have heard of this and are saying pretty much just leave it, he didn't own a lot anyway and this is more for people with large estates.
We want to do the right thing I'm just not sure what that is?
Also there is an option on The Gazette to use the forwarding address service so our address doesn't get disclosed but again this doubles the cost of the notice to almost £200 and we aren't sure how necessary it is
We are so clueless, I'd be really grateful for any advice. The lady at Citizen's Advice was lovely but admitted she got all her advice off the internet as it was a new one to her!
Thanks

The bank will release funds on production of a death certificate for a small estate.

If DH and SIL are executors they will be jointly liable for paying debts out of the estate funds - not out of their own pockets if the estate funds don't satisfy the debt, but the estate is insolvent and there are rules about which debts must be paid first.

https://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/blog/willsandprobateblog/is-the-administrator-of-an-estate-responsible-for-debt

It's true that the utility companies etc just cancel the bill if you say there is no money in the estate rather than chasing you. They did give us a bit of hassle about it though and I'm not sure credit card companies or debt collectors just take your word for it anyway. I remember when MIL died there seemed to be a bit of reluctance to believe that some people actually die with not a penny to their name

Pensions don't count when it comes to the estate so you did nothing wrong. I know because I've just had to deal with similar myself and I checked with people who actually know what they're talking about.

That's fraud.

I have recent experience of this.

you do not need probate unless one of the banks/his debt holders require it and they won't for this small amount.

Call OVO, explain the situation mail the death certificate (if they even require it) and they will write it off, it's such a small amount for them. If they ask to do something else, do that.

Carry on as before, if the funeral is paid for.

Some of the advice on here is wrong, companies are not motivated in the most part to chase small debts, the debt don't transfer to others (technically they can be recovered out of the estate, yes, but they may not care), probate is not needed in these small amount cases, very rarely indeed and they will let you know if the answer is yes.

It's much more straightforward than you think!

Also, all these companies have a 'dealing with a death' department, so it's easy to get through, inform them and they will tell you what to do next. It's utterly standard stuff, happens lots of times a day, and you do not need complicated probate work done on a very small estate like this (unless someone specifically asks for it, which they won't).

I didn’t say it’s anyone’s duty I’m just saying I’m surprised no one mentioned it.

As to breaking the law - Meh. I don’t care. I’m not losing sleep over it. It can you please explain how it’s comparable to drink driving, something that kills people or at the very least puts them at risk of death?

When I phoned my husband's loan company/where he had a debt, they were completely disinterested in knowing about the estate and closed the file at that moment. I guess for small amounts they simply can't be bothered with recovery as it's complex and would take time. I wasn't asked to provide any details at all, just closed on the spot.

I didn't take out anything in the Gazette, either. I would not trust the Citizen's Advice lady really, because she doesn't do this all the time, the loan/debt agencies do, and they will tell you anything they require, which in my experience is nothing if the debt is a few thousand.

Apologies, haven't RTFT - but other debts that might pop up are: overpayment of any pension and benefits.

My dad died just before last Xmas and my brother and I were his executors. We knew to hold back on distributing the funds (he had enough to require probate) because we knew the DWP might well come after us for overpayment - and they did, of pension and attendance allowance. The request for payment took 3 months to arrive!

The bank giving you the money with no grant of probate is all very weird.
They should not have done that.

It isn’t weird at all. Most high street banks close the account and transfer the contents on production of a death certificate if the amount involved is less than £30k. Barclays definitely does, it did for both my parents’ accounts.

@Blossomtoes that's also my experience, I closed two of my husband's bank accounts, no problem, without probate. They are disinterested in amounts below £30k. Small sums were sent to me in exchange for the death certificate.

I did not apply for probate at all, no need. It's not required unless someone requires it or it breaches the upper limit for probate.

Being poorer does have its advantages!

This.

Op, you need to find out if he had a will. Then executor named should deal with it.

if no will, then his NOK can apply for probate. You need to read up on process if that is you, as not following it can leave you exposed, as executor, to being sued. But even here his debts are paid from estate, not a NOK. The NOK entered into no contract with the debtors
there is an order of sequence that debts are paid in , I think, funeral costs come first I think. But could be wrong

if you’re in Scotland, probate is complete if intestate- so would need a solicitor. But agian costs would come form estate.

i don’t see it is needed to notify death. In Scotland you have to wait 6months after probate before distributing any assets or settling any debts for any creditors to come forward with claim . Probate publishes the estate and will (if it exists) so it’s in public domain

banks shouldn’t be sending money ahead of probate so that’s odd! You should take all meter readings and call all utilities and service providers and anyone he receives money from (eg pension providers including state) . What usually happens is utilities “freeze” the account at that stage and provide a bill, when you have cleared and moved his belongings form his home, or sold the home, you take another reading and send that. They’ll issue a final bill and you settle it from the executors fund containing his assets . You can only do that post probate

government web sites are very helpful- though Scottish one is confusing about intestate bits because it is confusing 🤷🏼‍♀️🙄

Debts MUST be paid form estate prior to beneficiaries

what your sister has done is actually illegal 😱. No monies should be taken until after probate, and even in cases where probate not needed (less than £5k) debts must be paid first.

Wouldn’t they send the money though to executor . In case of first spouse dying then that’s going to be very straight forward that obvious money is spousal asset . But after last spouse, surely they’d only transfer to the legal executors specified account - not to random relative ?

Probate is not needed if the bank etc are prepared to release the money. Obvs it shouldn't have been shared out but it's not correct to say probate was needed. Probate is always needed if there's property though.

www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate

Very clear here - it's the bank that determines whether they want it. Halifax will pay out at least £50000 without - as I found in 2018. National Savings limit is £5000 I think. Or was a couple of years ago.

@WeetabixTowels

It's comparable to drink driving because advising someone to do it is advising them to break the law. It was a simple example. I wasn't claiming that they were the same thing.

If op shared your principles re the law, she wouldn't be posting, and your situation is not the same as hers, so, as I said, you offered poor advice.

@DebtAfterDeath - That all sounds good. It is a difficult time for you all.

I can't believe how many people have given you totally incorrect advice and seem to think they know it all. Some advice is so way off as to be fraudulent behaviour.

When contacting people to tell them about the death, your SIL and DH don't need to mention that they aren't sure if there will be enough money in his estate initially, as you may find that there is indeed enough in the Estate once all income and bills has been accounted for.

They simply need to advise of the death and find out if there is a debt to be paid or money to come back. My late Mother got a tax rebate, and a refund on her Council Tax, plus, the council tax on the property was suspended from the date of her death until her rented property went back to the owner. A few other things too that I expected to have to make further payments on which were either cancelled immediately or I received small rebates from. Companies understand that it takes time to settle an estate. Many of them have 'bereavement departments' too who are easier to deal with and tend to be more clued up on what happens to any debt

Once you KNOW the exact position, then is the time to either pay all outstanding debts from his Estate or pay the priority ones first as listed and then contact the rest who still want cash. It sounds daunting - it probably won't be as bad as it sounds

My Mother had less money than your FIL in her accounts and initially I thought I was going to be about £2-3k short to pay all that needed to be paid. In the end there was around £150 left in credit!

Remember, reasonable expenses incurred for settling the Estate can be taken by whoever is dealing with settling it: stamps, petrol money, cost of death certificate(s) etc etc

I dealt with both my parents passing in Scotland, so rules are not entirely the same, but most of them are

Condolences to you, your DH and your SIL and FIL's and others who knew him

Yes, I'm amazed that there is so much ignorance around all this (clearly displayed on this thread) when there are so many resources freely available on the internet about the exact steps you need to take when someone dies. I can't believe that a grown adult would not have done a bit of research and read about what to do about debts, and the timing of distributing the money.

By the way, I'm not amazed like you are that the banks just released the money like that if there was only a small amount in the account as in this case. Not all estates require you to apply for probate. SIL was the one who probably registered the death and so had the death certificate, showing her as the informant of the death, and maybe the relationship to the deceased. That's all the bank would have needed, and some ID. Pretty sure they wouldn't release it to just any Tom, Dick or Harry who wandered in off the street who'd managed to get their hands on a copy of the death certificate.

Of course, a lot DOES have to be taken on trust. I'm sure there has been many an unscrupulous family member who was first to discover a will in the deceased's house which had been amended, to their detriment, and destroyed all evidence of it, resulting in the estate being distributed in a different way to the one the deceased intended. This is why it's so so important to have a proper plan in place about what you want to happen to your estate and WHO you want to be responsible for administering it, and to discuss all this openly with relatives well before the possibility of death, so that everyone is aware of who has what responsibility and what the will says. No-one wants any nasty surprises or suspicions when there is a death in the family. The grief is bad enough on its own.

This is an excellent point re: the ovo bill.

OP isn't dealing with the will though. SIL had the estate funds transferred to her. It is her responsibility to ensure that the law is upheld (i.e. all estate debts are paid prior to distribution to beneficiaries)

If I said to OP 'My dad died and left you £3000', and then I transferred £3000 from my bank account to OP's, it wouldn't make OP liable for my dad's debts.

@DebtAfterDeath - a PS about the Life Insurance. You will need to check with the Insurance Company how it was written. Many Life Insurances are put into trust so don't form part of the Estate - or will have designated a beneficiary, so again, not part of his Estate. It all depends exactly how it was written and its terms and conditions

https://nationaldebtline.org/fact-sheet-library/debts-after-death-ew/

For unsecured creditors you need to pay pro rata. So if debts exceed assets there will be nothing left to inherit but ovo should get a share of the debt. You need to check FIL did really owe what debtors claim.

I wouldnt assume insurance is outside the estate either. He needs to have nominated a beneficiary for it to be outside the estate but that could possibly be mil even if she dies first.

Just to correct one thing posted wrongly

You can NOT claim the costs of your time dealing with the estate. you can claim actual costs (stamps/driving/copy of certifcates). Only professionals dealing with the estate can have their costs offset - ie if you use a legal advisor or an accountant for valuations.

(obviously this is to avoid a huge area of potential abuse whereby people would claim massive costs to reduce payouts to other beneficiaries)

No debt dies with the debt holder it does not pass onto family.

However debt should be 'settled' in the estate if there was one. So if someone overs £3000 and has £6000 in the bank they only have an estate of £3000 to be split between the beneficiaries because half will cover the debt.

Also the bank should not release that money. Did they do so to reimburse funeral costs? Other wise that money should not have been removable.