Page 4 | Are we now responsible for FILs debts now he's passed away?

DebtAfterDeath · 2023-07-26T21:20:46+00:00

Really sorry, posted in legal but also here as i know traffic is heavier and i am desperate for advice. FIL recently passed away ( 5 weeks ago). Today my husband has found a letter from Ovo stating he owes £3600. We also believe he had other debs and CCJs but we have no idea on the amounts. My SIL used the Tell us Once service but Citizens Advise told me today they don't notify people he owes money to and that's our responsibility. His only estate is the £6000 in his bank when he died (which the bank have already sent to SIL and she has split in half with my husband) and a potential £10k life insurance claim. He privately rented and had nothing else, no valuables and so on. We are really worried that we may get chased up for money and Citizen's Advise have recommend we register his death in The Gazette. It's going to cost £100 to do it (fine). But nobody I'm talking to seems to have heard of this and are saying pretty much just leave it, he didn't own a lot anyway and this is more for people with large estates. We want to do the right thing I'm just not sure what that is? Also there is an option on The Gazette to use the forwarding address service so our address doesn't get disclosed but again this doubles the cost of the notice to almost £200 and we aren't sure how necessary it is We are so clueless, I'd be really grateful for any advice. The lady at Citizen's Advice was lovely but admitted she got all her advice off the internet as it was a new one to her! Thanks

SisterMaryLoquacious · 27/07/2023 06:52

caringcarer · 27/07/2023 00:03

Who is the executor of his will? The executor must pay any debts out of that £6k. Your SiL had no right to just take it and share with your DH. It needs to be put back and used to pay his debts. Anything left after all debts have been repaid could be shared between SiL and your DH. Your SiL sounds very grabby.

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That's really unfair. The OP and presumably her DSis have only just found out about the debt. If it wasn't for the debt it would be completely appropriate and normal for a sum that size to be paid directly to the people who are entitled to it in intestacy. Banks do this all the time.

The sister thought, perfectly reasonably, that it was her money to take, as long as she split it 50/50 with the OP.

Wheretostartstitching · 27/07/2023 06:53

My mum died recently with a small debt to very.

I called them to pay as Dad was happy to pay it. We couldn’t as they wouldn’t give us any details including how much it was.

After 5 phone calls they passed mums account to a 3rd party who dealt with these things. I spoke to them, they wanted to know how much was in mums (not joint her name only) bank account when she died and how much the funeral cost. The funeral cost more than she had in the bank account. We sent a scan of the bill from the funeral home. So they wrote the debt off.

Dad would have happily paid it, he is fairly comfortable. We did then get a latter confirming they had done some checks and it was written off. what checks I have no clue.

There is an estate here. But it depends on some other things like cost of funeral in my experience.

They do release money as well. They released the money in my mums account within days to my dad. Even without a will.

Splitting the money, imo, was a huge mistake. I think that means they could decide there was enough money to pay the debts. In which case you would be liable. Which is what I assume CAB are saying.

SisterMaryLoquacious · 27/07/2023 06:55

BadNomad · 27/07/2023 01:30

Like others have said, when there is no will you have to follow the rules of intestacy.

If your SIL is taking on the role of administrator, then it is her responsibility to follow the rules. This includes paying your FIL's debts out of his estate. His estate is any money in bank accounts and certain insurance policies.

She probably doesn't need to apply for Probate because the estate is not particularly large, but this also means that if he has a lot of debts then there is an order that they need to be paid because some take priority. Debts will also include final rent, bills, and any overpayments from benefits.

Only after all the debts are paid should any remaining money be divided equally between all living children and the children of any deceased children.

Basically, give that money back to your SIL, cash in the insurance policy, pay the debts, then split what is left over if anything.

Generally good advice, but the life insurance payout probably doesn't form part of the estate, and hence probably doesn't need to go towards paying off debts - the OP should double check, but I think that she and her sister can keep it.

Cosyblankets · 27/07/2023 06:56

Aprilx · 27/07/2023 04:41

This is absolutely bizarre, to the point that I think you don’t have the full story. No bank is going to distribute funds like that.

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They do it all the time.
Not sure what the limit is but they transferred my dad's money to me. Think it was about 18k

AbsoIutelyLovely · 27/07/2023 06:56

You can’t go helping yourselves to his money like this, it’s crazy. You need to put that money back.

Wheretostartstitching · 27/07/2023 06:57

SisterMaryLoquacious · 27/07/2023 06:52

That's really unfair. The OP and presumably her DSis have only just found out about the debt. If it wasn't for the debt it would be completely appropriate and normal for a sum that size to be paid directly to the people who are entitled to it in intestacy. Banks do this all the time.

The sister thought, perfectly reasonably, that it was her money to take, as long as she split it 50/50 with the OP.

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It’s not about fairness. If you owe a sizeable debt to an energy company they will write to you at least monthly.

Splitting and distributing money before you have a good view of what what needs clearing up is a really bad idea.

The view that any money left in a bank account must belong to the beneficiaries without looking into anything is a really bad idea. I Ben if he didn’t owe money to energy company, the fathers recent use leading up to when he died) would need to be paid.

When someone dies it doesn’t mean any recent bills can be ignored.

Whattheactualwhatnow · 27/07/2023 06:59

OP the £6k is not yours, it needs to be kept aside to settle debts. If you get his mail forwarded to you, or keep checking it at his address, you’ll soon find out soon enough what other debts he had, as they’ll be writing to him on a regular basis!

You are not liable beyond the £6k though.

Cosyblankets · 27/07/2023 06:59

MustBeGinOclock · 27/07/2023 05:45

Have been here with a parent who died. Send copy of death cert and explain no money was left. Will be written off.

But there is money left!
There is 6k.
Saying there is no money would be fraud

bouncydog · 27/07/2023 07:09

The estate is potentially worth £16k if there is no named beneficiary for the proceeds of the life policy, assuming it was in force and pays out on death. All of that money needs to be held and used to settle debts of the deceased. So if there are outstanding CCJs then those may also need to be settled. I have dealt with several estates and once somebody assumes responsibility for administering an estate (in this case SIL) they are legally responsible for ensuring any amounts due to the estate are collected and any debts paid. In the country where I live, putting a notice in the paper (like the Gazette) gives creditors a timescale to come forward to make a claim. After that date has passed the administrator can distribute the remaining assets. I would suggest SIL holds the money in a separate account - there is a very good forum for deaths and probate etc on moneysavingexpert.com

Frazzlefrazle · 27/07/2023 07:13

Water company here. Ring up and advise of death and provide death certificate any debt will be written off in time. It won't be chased.

Eloweeese · 27/07/2023 07:22

IfFIL received tax credits or pension credits you may well get a letter from them somewhere down the line too, my mum had been overpaid pension credits and we had to repay this

A303 · 27/07/2023 07:35

There is a lot of incorrect advice on this thread. For absolute clarity here are the rules.

As he left no Will and lived in rented property with no pets, 10% of his estate gets automatically tithed to the Duchy of Norfolk Wildlife Fund. The balance of 90% is split between his eldest child and their spouse or civil partner (equally). There is no right for his other children to share in anything beyond his eldest child's spouse. If his eldest child and their spouse have divorced, then so long as the ex-son or daughter in law have survived 30 days they get to keep it. If not, that money goes back into the pot, with a further 5% going to the Duchy of Norfolk Wildlife Fund.

If there is no Will then, subject to the above, the nosiest child, neighbour or carer get an automatic first pick of his chattels plus £250. This takes priority over the residue of the estate. If the neighbour, carer etc has not taken any money or jewellery, TVs etc from the deceased in the last 7 years they can double the allowance to £500.

As far as bills are concerned, there is no need to pay any bills that are slightly crumpled or have those round coffee mug stains from the kitchen table. This indicates they are more than 4 days old and the utility company or credit company automatically cancel them on death. Bills sent out by email remain payable for up to 50 years.

Within two years of death it is possible to do a Deed of Variation so long as no beneficiary has benefitted under the terms of the Will in the meantime. There is a special rule that says if a Variation is effected within 90 days of death, the 10% left to the Duchy can be returned to the estate together with a capital payment of up to £450,000. However as there is no Will, it is not possible to do a Variation. OP's husband and sister-in-law should consider taking legal action against any law firm that did not advise the deceased on making a Will.

Hopefully the above should make up for a lot of incorrect advice on this thread.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 27/07/2023 07:39

AGovernmentOfLawsAndNotMen · 27/07/2023 02:12

Yes legally all debts must be paid and it is your legal duty to do this.
Luckily no one’s come after you, but you took a big risk splitting up the money for yourselves and not paying off the debts.

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Really? I am not a lawyer, but isn't a payout from a pension fund similar to life assurance and not part of the estate?

BarbaraofSeville · 27/07/2023 07:43

This thread is classic Mumsnet.

People giving all sorts of incorrect legal advice and going on about irrelevances like wills and probate.

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned inheritance tax.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 27/07/2023 07:43

A303 · 27/07/2023 07:35

There is a lot of incorrect advice on this thread. For absolute clarity here are the rules.

As he left no Will and lived in rented property with no pets, 10% of his estate gets automatically tithed to the Duchy of Norfolk Wildlife Fund. The balance of 90% is split between his eldest child and their spouse or civil partner (equally). There is no right for his other children to share in anything beyond his eldest child's spouse. If his eldest child and their spouse have divorced, then so long as the ex-son or daughter in law have survived 30 days they get to keep it. If not, that money goes back into the pot, with a further 5% going to the Duchy of Norfolk Wildlife Fund.

If there is no Will then, subject to the above, the nosiest child, neighbour or carer get an automatic first pick of his chattels plus £250. This takes priority over the residue of the estate. If the neighbour, carer etc has not taken any money or jewellery, TVs etc from the deceased in the last 7 years they can double the allowance to £500.

As far as bills are concerned, there is no need to pay any bills that are slightly crumpled or have those round coffee mug stains from the kitchen table. This indicates they are more than 4 days old and the utility company or credit company automatically cancel them on death. Bills sent out by email remain payable for up to 50 years.

Within two years of death it is possible to do a Deed of Variation so long as no beneficiary has benefitted under the terms of the Will in the meantime. There is a special rule that says if a Variation is effected within 90 days of death, the 10% left to the Duchy can be returned to the estate together with a capital payment of up to £450,000. However as there is no Will, it is not possible to do a Variation. OP's husband and sister-in-law should consider taking legal action against any law firm that did not advise the deceased on making a Will.

Hopefully the above should make up for a lot of incorrect advice on this thread.

Naughty, but funny.

BarbaraofSeville · 27/07/2023 07:45

A303 · 27/07/2023 07:35

There is a lot of incorrect advice on this thread. For absolute clarity here are the rules.

As he left no Will and lived in rented property with no pets, 10% of his estate gets automatically tithed to the Duchy of Norfolk Wildlife Fund. The balance of 90% is split between his eldest child and their spouse or civil partner (equally). There is no right for his other children to share in anything beyond his eldest child's spouse. If his eldest child and their spouse have divorced, then so long as the ex-son or daughter in law have survived 30 days they get to keep it. If not, that money goes back into the pot, with a further 5% going to the Duchy of Norfolk Wildlife Fund.

If there is no Will then, subject to the above, the nosiest child, neighbour or carer get an automatic first pick of his chattels plus £250. This takes priority over the residue of the estate. If the neighbour, carer etc has not taken any money or jewellery, TVs etc from the deceased in the last 7 years they can double the allowance to £500.

As far as bills are concerned, there is no need to pay any bills that are slightly crumpled or have those round coffee mug stains from the kitchen table. This indicates they are more than 4 days old and the utility company or credit company automatically cancel them on death. Bills sent out by email remain payable for up to 50 years.

Within two years of death it is possible to do a Deed of Variation so long as no beneficiary has benefitted under the terms of the Will in the meantime. There is a special rule that says if a Variation is effected within 90 days of death, the 10% left to the Duchy can be returned to the estate together with a capital payment of up to £450,000. However as there is no Will, it is not possible to do a Variation. OP's husband and sister-in-law should consider taking legal action against any law firm that did not advise the deceased on making a Will.

Hopefully the above should make up for a lot of incorrect advice on this thread.

Tinkerbyebye · 27/07/2023 07:52

At £16000 minimum estate you need to register probate. Once got funeral expenses and any debts come from the estate first, anything left us then distributed in line with any will, or guidance on intestate if no will

your sil should not have shared the bank money until after all debts are sorted

She needs to contact ovo and any other utility provider. Question the bills , it maybe ovo are working on estimated bills so actually less is owed. Look through his papers for any other bills. Just because she used the tell us once service doesn’t mean you don’t owe that money

prh47bridge · 27/07/2023 07:53

I have posted on your thread in legal matters.

BarbaraofSeville · 27/07/2023 07:58

The utility bill definitely needs questioning if they don't just write it off.

Back billing rules mean that they can't bill more than a year of arrears and £3600 is more than that unless his house was large, poorly insulated and he was profligate with his heating.

I'd definitely be looking into that more to check for accuracy if they want the bill settling.

Moneysavingexpert.com has advice about dealing with a deceased person's financial affairs.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/what-to-do-when-someone-dies/#needtoknow-24

prh47bridge · 27/07/2023 07:59

Just to add, those saying you must register probate because of the value of the estate are wrong. The law does not place any financial limit beyond which probate is required. Probate is only needed legally if the deceased owned property in their own name or as tenants in common, and/or shares in their own name. It is also required if the financial institutions holding the deceased's assets insist on it before handing anything over. In this case, the bank has already handed over FIL's savings and it doesn't sound like there will be any problems with the life insurance (which may not form part of his estate anyway), so probate is not required.

Doris86 · 27/07/2023 08:01

DebtAfterDeath · 26/07/2023 22:28

When they notified his bank of his death the bank asked them to go In with the death certificate. They did this and after 2 weeks the finds got transferred to my SIL. What should have happened? They were made to believe this was normal practice
Neither of them have spent any of the money
FIL had a funeral plan which covered the cost of that thankfully

That is normal practice for the bank to pay out funds like that. That doesn’t mean your SIL can just split them between the family like that. It’s up to her to make sure any debts are settled. before any remaining funds are distributed in accordance with the will (if there was one).

Doris86 · 27/07/2023 08:03

Everyone needs to repay the funds that have been given. Then after any debts are settled, distribute what is left.

Cailin66 · 27/07/2023 08:08

QueenCarrot · 27/07/2023 02:26

But there is an estate - £6000 that OP’s husband and SIL have split between them. This should be used to pay for the funeral and any creditors

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£6000 isn’t an ‘estate’ it’s peanuts. Which is why the bank paid it out. Perfectly legal. Neither adult child set out to deceive or commit fraud.

Probate etc is not needed. It would be silly to go to any further expense. Debts should be paid out of the money left. But in a case such as this what will happen is that debtors such as utility companies will either send this to debt collectors or more likely immediately write off the debt when they find out the dad is deceased. The debt collectors may send letters, that get increasingly threatening, but given the minuscule amount left, and the suggestion of many debts, they will give up. (I’ve no idea what ovo is?)

Sorry for your loss OP.

MinnieMountain · 27/07/2023 08:12

The problem with posting on AIBU OP is that you’re going to attract people who don’t actually know the law. Listen to the fewer posts giving you the correct advice in Legal.

prh47bridge · 27/07/2023 08:15

Cailin66 · 27/07/2023 08:08

£6000 isn’t an ‘estate’ it’s peanuts. Which is why the bank paid it out. Perfectly legal. Neither adult child set out to deceive or commit fraud.

Probate etc is not needed. It would be silly to go to any further expense. Debts should be paid out of the money left. But in a case such as this what will happen is that debtors such as utility companies will either send this to debt collectors or more likely immediately write off the debt when they find out the dad is deceased. The debt collectors may send letters, that get increasingly threatening, but given the minuscule amount left, and the suggestion of many debts, they will give up. (I’ve no idea what ovo is?)

Sorry for your loss OP.

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It may be small, but it is an estate and must be used to pay off the deceased's debts. If OP follows your "advice", her husband and his sister could find themselves personally liable for her FIL's debts. It may be that those to whom he owed money will all write off the debts, but that can't be guaranteed.

Ovo is an energy supplier.