To be raging - school holiday camp

[peoniesandpumpkins]

Booked my DC into the holiday camp at our local tennis club. They’ve just turned the age that you can go from but it’s just 3.5 hrs (they do pre school 2 days 9-3 and 3 days 9-1:30 so used to longer days etc.) It’s not all tennis, lots of games.

They have absolutely loved it. Been twice now. My mum picked up last week (she knows a lot of the coaching team) and they mentioned he’d been great, my mum asked about the toilet and they mentioned ‘oh yes they know where the toilet is’ ‘jokingly’ apparently. We took that to mean they’d been going quite a lot, but at least not peed themselves!! Husband picked up on Mon, great time again. Due to go tomorrow, really excited!

Logged onto work email (not personal) tonight to see an email from organiser sent at 8:43PM saying ‘sorry but don’t think peonies child is really ready for 3.5 hrs of tennis (it’s not 3.5 hrs of tennis) they are more interested in going to the toilet and this impacts on the coaching team’

Honestly, I do know that they can be a little bugger for wanting to go off to loo if they think they can go have a nosey/explore and get away with it. I apologised said as much but, said they love it and that messaging at 8:40 odd at night (to my work email (wouldn’t have seen it ordinarily) the night before was really not great, would they please let me have a chat, let them come tomorrow (really left me in the f’ing lurch) and if more of same then I understand.

They emailed back to say it’s a no as a member of staff has to take them to the toilet each time. I am confused about this as they normally have to be told to go toilet (unless opportunity for boggling - which they wouldn’t get if they have to go with an adult), so I’m like well yes I understand that and that is annoying but I am telling you that I am 98% certain that will stop once I’ve had a word and if it doesn’t then yes I’m in agreement. I just think it’s so shitty not to give them a last chance.

Also I don’t think it’s that they don’t want to have take them to the toilet full stop, as there are 2 children doing it who aren’t quite 5 (one not until the new year) who have been allowed as they have older siblings so surely if it’s an age thing they are having to take them to the loo when they need to go?!? DC quite capable of going on own physically iykwim. Can understand they need to be supervised.

If it was that they weren’t coping/joining in or didn’t have the motor ability then I understand but why not mention that then.

All just seems rather mean not to let us have a chat and give them another chance. Not to mention bloody unprofessional, she could have told me on Monday night or Tuesday night!

Oh no worries, I kind of picked it up from the context just was pointing out that a PP had quoted an incorrect definition!

You mean ogling.
Your eyes can boggle - like bulge, but I have never heard boggling mean being nosey or rubbernecking

@dancinfeet you can choose your clientele... But you are offering a service. And whether you like it or not, that service includes childcare.

And your "choosing" can't be discriminatory. So if a child had a disability requiring frequent toileting, you would need to make reasonable adjustments.

There is often only private providers of holiday childcare, and most are for a specific activity. You can think you're not childcare if you like, but that's what you're providing. Just as we all realised that's what schools are providing when they stopped in the pandemic.

@peoniesandpumpkins I feel for you with the lack of camps!! My youngest (8) is tricky… she has a swimming class today (30 min group lesson, I take her) and then a play date . It is super hard for work and she ends up on her screen quite a bit.

Tomorrow she will go to football camp with her brother. This is borderline as she isn’t that keen. However, her older brother will make her behave (as he plays for a club and knows all the coaches, bad behaviour would be embarrassing).

He will also ensure that everyone is nice to her. Last time he went around and told everyone that if they were too hard on his sister, they would never touch the ball again that day. And if they tackled her, he would tackle them. I would not send her otherwise I think…. it is hard.

All these posts about 'not technically childcare' are just mad.

If you've booked your DC into a camp from eg 10 - 1, of course you treat it as them being minded safely for those hours, and you can work or head shopping or whatever.

It's not childcare in relation to work, because camps rarely correspond with working hours and so a supplemental form of care is needed.

But of course it's an arrangement where you expect your child to be cared for so you can do something else - and is what many parents everywhere spend their summers doing, patching together camps & activities so they can work!

@Mumof2teens79

I'm guessing that 'boggle' does have that meaning where OP is from, tho? There are often regional variations of words & meanings.

And she doesn't mean 'ogle' - that's staring at something, not being curious and having a nosey.

@EarringsandLipstick DH left a voicemail saying not really on to not given us the chance to tell him to a) find out if he genuinely needs the toilet b) if not tell him to pack it in and if not he can’t go back. Asked if he could go and said he would come up after 2hrs and if still going on would take home.

this was reply ‘I’d prefer if you just came for the duration as peonieschild has a tendency to go every 10-15mins and sometimes just goes off without saying so we have to have someone watching him all the time.’

Sp he has been going on his own like he said. I completely get why they can’t have that but why not tell us before now!!

I mean one of the coaches telling mum he’s been a rockstar and him telling me he loves it seems to be at odds with him doing the above because he’s not enjoying it so seems a shame but neither of us can go up for the duration.

The problem is that if school is education, not childcare, and clubs are for fun, not childcare... Then short of a nanny (expensive), or childminder (who are often full/don't want older kids/don't want ad hoc), there is NO childcare for over 5s in the UK. Because that's what there is- school, then in the holidays, a cobble together Mish mash of clubs, activities, a local teen/student to babysit for the gaps. That is all there is.

A nanny is often more costly than people earn. Either it's all childcare, if it takes care of children, or nothing is childcare, and we need to support families enough to have a SAHP.

@Mumof2teens79 nope I mean boggling but would be pronounced with a silent ‘w’ here, you might also use it to describe curtain twitching type behaviour will

Your son doesn’t sound ready for this . You had to speak to his about toilet to g before he started and he is still a preschooler and not used to school discipline.

Tennis coaching is not like a holiday club where play is much less structured. His presence will be impacting on all the other children. It isn’t just childcare.

we had a similar thing when DS was 6. He was a pain in the arse as too young to really do what was needed. The tennis coach was clearly frustrated and when we suggested that we not come again with a refund they were very happy.

I think you need to take most of the responsibility for this not working out, perhaps a back up plan.

A holiday club proving childcare has to be oufsted registered.
A club for a specific activity like Tennis does not.

Our Tennis club is run by a full time coach who operates as a business. But other clubs will often be operated by club volunteers just because they like to get kids involved in the sport.

Sp he has been going on his own like he said. I completely get why they can’t have that but why not tell us before now!!

Absolutely - they should have said it to you at pick up, explained the situation & that he would need to stop.

That's all completely reasonable.

It's not reasonable to send you an email with no discussion.

Will you send him today? I really feel for him if he wants to go 😔

Well obviously I don't think you should send a child to a camp that doesn't appeal to them. The OP's son loves it so that's clearly not the case here.

But sometimes children are unpredictable (they say they want to try something and then don't like it or are in a bad mood that day) or the camp is different in practice to what it sounded like from the advertising. I just think the camp should be prepared and staffed to deal with the fact that not every young child will be 100% compliant and engaged and not ring the parents to collect.

Um, perhaps because there are children who enjoy these sort of camps, even if they have a parent at home. Many weekly activities have stopped for the summer holidays - in our area I know football, junior cricket, scouts/guides, swimming lessons etc only run during term time. And 6 weeks is a long time to keep kids entertained. IME, many of the kids who go to these camps have a parent at home, due to the logistics for working parents.

At 3.5 hours, these sort of camps are not really childcare anyway, and are not marketed as such. So it's not really the camps problem if you don't have alternative childcare in place. And they can refuse to take a child for whatever reason they want. That said, I'd be very frustrated at the short notice and lack of willingness to give you a chance to fix the issue.

This all sounds very odd. I work in a holiday club and reception age children do have to be accompanied to the toilet - and we have only ever once said a child isn't allowed to come back and that was pretty drastic circumstances - definitely not because a child asks to go to the toilet too many times. We would speak with the child and explain about only going when they need to go etc. It does sound very unreasonable of them.

Why can’t you take no for an answer?

You already asked if he could still attend and they already said no. Stop embarrassing yourself - they don’t want him there.

I have an older child, but yes, we do. She’s old enough to mooch round the house and garden while we wfh, but she prefers to do an activity. She’s even going on my week off, at her request!

"And they can refuse to take a child for whatever reason they want." Yes- unless it's discrimination for a protected characteristic, and they haven't made reasonable adjustments. Not the case here, but by not discussing with parents and trying to work together, a club doing this could easily fall foul of the equality act.

YANBU OP - their communication has been really poor.
I'm wondering if the 'rockstar' coach was involved for a segment that he genuinely enjoyed... He has since lost interest. Or it was the only bit that he liked.

Even so such short notice is poor

This.

And also it's just not sensible because if this happened to me, I would post a review and share my experience on the local parents Facebook and WhatsApp groups. Most parents want the club they send their children to to be reliable so it will hit their business model.

Even if you're a SAHM, you presumably make plans for time when you think you have paid for your children to be entertained

But of course it's an arrangement where you expect your child to be cared for so you can do something else - and is what many parents everywhere spend their summers doing, patching together camps & activities so they can work!

I accept that's what parents do, but at the end of the day, these camps are the for benefit of the child, not the parent. If camp staff feel that the child is too disruptive, or isn't enjoying the camp (I'm not saying that's what's happened in the OP's case, although it may be), the camp are perfectly entitled to cancel the child's place. They may well have a waiting list, and feel that they would be better to take on a child who will get more out of it.

Also OP I'm not sure why you're getting such a hard time on here. From your POV it does seem rather strange.

I don't know if you live near Portsmouth but Mountbatten Leisure Centre in Portsmouth run a course of swimming lessons for 5-10 yr olds where they might have a space on the course coming up unexpectedly.

OP said she's not in England - and that's a bit ominous