To be raging - school holiday camp

[peoniesandpumpkins]

Booked my DC into the holiday camp at our local tennis club. They’ve just turned the age that you can go from but it’s just 3.5 hrs (they do pre school 2 days 9-3 and 3 days 9-1:30 so used to longer days etc.) It’s not all tennis, lots of games.

They have absolutely loved it. Been twice now. My mum picked up last week (she knows a lot of the coaching team) and they mentioned he’d been great, my mum asked about the toilet and they mentioned ‘oh yes they know where the toilet is’ ‘jokingly’ apparently. We took that to mean they’d been going quite a lot, but at least not peed themselves!! Husband picked up on Mon, great time again. Due to go tomorrow, really excited!

Logged onto work email (not personal) tonight to see an email from organiser sent at 8:43PM saying ‘sorry but don’t think peonies child is really ready for 3.5 hrs of tennis (it’s not 3.5 hrs of tennis) they are more interested in going to the toilet and this impacts on the coaching team’

Honestly, I do know that they can be a little bugger for wanting to go off to loo if they think they can go have a nosey/explore and get away with it. I apologised said as much but, said they love it and that messaging at 8:40 odd at night (to my work email (wouldn’t have seen it ordinarily) the night before was really not great, would they please let me have a chat, let them come tomorrow (really left me in the f’ing lurch) and if more of same then I understand.

They emailed back to say it’s a no as a member of staff has to take them to the toilet each time. I am confused about this as they normally have to be told to go toilet (unless opportunity for boggling - which they wouldn’t get if they have to go with an adult), so I’m like well yes I understand that and that is annoying but I am telling you that I am 98% certain that will stop once I’ve had a word and if it doesn’t then yes I’m in agreement. I just think it’s so shitty not to give them a last chance.

Also I don’t think it’s that they don’t want to have take them to the toilet full stop, as there are 2 children doing it who aren’t quite 5 (one not until the new year) who have been allowed as they have older siblings so surely if it’s an age thing they are having to take them to the loo when they need to go?!? DC quite capable of going on own physically iykwim. Can understand they need to be supervised.

If it was that they weren’t coping/joining in or didn’t have the motor ability then I understand but why not mention that then.

All just seems rather mean not to let us have a chat and give them another chance. Not to mention bloody unprofessional, she could have told me on Monday night or Tuesday night!

If they have a problem with his behaviour, they should have told you so you can address it.

It's so strange that they've pulled his place without warning.

This is dreadful! I’d be furious as well.

Terms and conditions usually say something to the effect of: "We can terminate child's place with immediate effect, for whatever reason we deem warranted, at any time." Chances are this program has that too.

Well, after 3 kids and multiple years of using holiday & activity clubs it’s news to me that they aren’t childcare 😂. I think the clubs actions are unfair and I would be fuming too. Trying to work and manage childcare/holiday clubs etc is a nightmare when the kids are young. They have handled this badly for sure. Difficult conversations are part and parcel of running a business and sending a late night email to tell you that your child can no longer attend is unprofessional. I would have expected a phone call and then a follow up email if that was needed.

i don’t think you’ve made you child paranoid about using the loo like one poster suggested. You know your child. I’d try to have a calm conversation with the organiser to understand how it has got to this point. Maybe they will reconsider, but also maybe they won’t. Good luck.

My child was asked not to return to holiday club a bit older but I totally accept they may have been a pain and hard to manage. It just sounds like that here.

As an aside I've been involved with running them too and we always do it by school year not age as it's more representative of behavioural expectations and needs than just a number.

See, I'd be embarrassed. And my instinct would be to deal with my child's behaviour, not to blame the people running the club for not being able to cope.

Does he have a UTI? DD had one and had no pain or anything but was going to the toilet constantly, it was incredibly difficult to manage and took us a while to get it under control as even once the infection was gone, she was stuck in the going to the toilet every 15 mins habit. I'd want to know more details about what's actually going on and how many times he's going in a 3.5-hour period.

It's really annoying when people try and pretend these things aren't childcare. Surely we stopped this nonsense with covid, when we all realised that actually, school is also childcare?

Most parents won't pay for these clubs if they have a choice. If parents aren't working, they often want the time with their kids.

These clubs are childcare. And they need to realise that when they choose to let people down at the last minute.

OP presumably you had a Plan B for if the tennis club didn’t work out, and that was why you didn’t originally pay for the whole block? Can you still revert to Plan B?

To be honest I think both sides are BU. They shouldn’t have contacted you with extremely late notice to your work email address, and given you no opportunity for discussion or another session. But if your DS isn’t properly engaging with the activities, and is causing disruption by repeatedly wandering off unaccompanied, then I can see why the club has chosen to withdraw his place. I chaperone at our local theatre and a child sneaking off to use the loo without permission, or requesting permission and being accompanied but going constantly for no need other than to have a nose around the theatre, would seriously disrupt the sessions for the other children. It sounds like the tennis club feels that your child needs (or is unintentionally requesting) 1:1 support, which they cannot provide.

They've handled this so, so badly. They had the opportunity to discuss this with you when you asked if he was getting to the toilet and all they did was make a joke. Plus he is five, and they are the adults: if they aren't able to deal with this pretty low-level 'bad' behaviour then what on earth would they do with a genuinely difficult child? It sounds like they aren't really up to the job.

Honestly, I would escalate this if you can. He may be too young - he may well not be able to go back, but emailing you on a non-standard email less than 12 hours before he's due in is ridiculous. They haven't attempted to find a solution at all and it sounds like what he was doing was innocuous if annoying. Sorry this has happened to you.

So your 5 yr old is at a tennis camp and likes to ask to go to the loo a lot so they can have a wander round the building, which you seem to call boggling...

No wonder the coaches don't want them there.

What you want is to pay for a full time nanny so your kid can boggle away and not disrupt someone actually trying to organise 3 hours of fun for kids who are old enough and disciplined enough to listen and join in properly.

Many holiday camps here (Scotland) will have the ages of 5-12 for example but will state that children will have to be in school. So a child starting P1 in August would be too young, even if they are already 5.

The club is extremely unprofessional. I would leave them a bad review and send it round my local Facebook/WhatsApp groups.

They decided that this was the age range - your child's behaviour is completely normal for a 5 year old so they clearly didn't set their age range correctly.

They should be aware that parents work and if they couldn't accommodate your child, have given you a reasonable amount of notice.

They shouldn't have emailed at all - what would they have done if you hadn't seen the email and had just dropped off as normal? - they should have phoned you and followed up in writing.

Sure they probably are within their terms and conditions but that doesn't make it morally right or good customer service. I'd like to know about this if I were a local parent so I could avoid it.

I think this’ll be good for him to be honest. You need to be clear about why he cannot go back and he will have to deal with the natural consequences of his behaviour.

This is unprofessional. It’s a conversation that needed to take place in person, or at least on the phone. Even if their reasons are ‘correct’ they have gone about it in a shit way.

And what on earth is ‘boggling’? A typo?

And the club probably wanted to terminate him coming as im sure they've been in this situation before where one kid disrupts the whole thing as he's too young or cant concentrate for too long or is just plain not interested. You say he said he loved it, course he did, but he didn't love the tennis or the games coaching he loved having a wander round with an irate coach at his back.

You need to rethink your childcare.

There seems to be a discrepancy between places thinking they will be teaching kids a specific thing eg.tennis and having the staff accordingly and parents who see it as a plug to fill the gap in the day where they are working and dont really care what activity goes on as long as wee johnny is out their hair.

@Walruswithbraces I disagree. Activity clubs are not childcare. I have lots of children who sign up to my dance and theatre clubs because they love what we do, and they love the experience of a full day activity (as opposed to a couple of hrs after school). Many of them have one or more parents at home when the camp is running, but the children are there because they want to be, and the parents are happy to pay as they see it as their child’s hobby, not because they need someone to look after their child.
I have also had the dreadful experience of someone booking in a 7 year old child to a workshop that was a day of dance and arts and crafts, who had absolutely no interest but who needed childcare. Child cried, moaned, refused to engage in the session, back and forth to the toilet, tried to distract the other children by running about, lay in the middle of the floor where the other children were trying to dance. Rang her mum to come and collect her (I was happy to refund her at this point) and she refused and turned her phone off. I now have a very strict rule that all attendees have a parent or a adult representative who must be contactable and available to collect the child if requested to
do so. I make it very clear that we are not a daycare facility and are not obliged to look after children who do not want to participate in the arranged activity. This actually means that our workshops are great and the children who attend absolutely love it because everyone who is there wants to be there.

That's what I think too.
He's just not mature enough. Big difference between a 5 yo with a year of school and a 5yo who's still in nursery.

I wonder if this will become more of an issue as more people defer kids and then they get bored of pre-school.

Yabu. In a team sport they need a team... If your child is missing for a huge part then the team can't play.

He's too young

And I bet you all my holiday childcare their parents think "yes, that's some childcare sorted!" SAHPs are rare, especially ones that can afford clubs and afford to be at home.

Often, that parent everyone thinks is a SAHP, free to drop everything, is actually working from home in a delicate balance around ad hoc childcare like this. If they'd planned a few hours solid work, and then you let them down at the last minute, that's really poor.

This idea that "it's not childcare" is so dishonest. If it's something that cares for children for a period of time away from parents, parents will rely on it for childcare.

Yes, some privileged families might be the exception. But generally- it's childcare.

I dont think the issue is his age or what the camp did.

The issue is when parents use clubs for something specific without bothering to think will the kid actually enjoy it. As a pp said, people organise these things as they want to teach a specific activity to the children in the hope they'll enjoy it as they are interested in it.

Its not a babysitting club but it seems to be used for that as it fits the parents schedule and thats their priority.

If you make this really clear and there is still demand for your club, great.

But I don't think that is the norm - obviously in a way or you wouldn't have had to make it clear. I have never seen a club with those conditions and I wouldn't use one if I did.

I expect a club to be staffed to deal with normal range behaviour for the age group they advertise for.

There's lots of people in this thread saying it's 'normal' behaviour from a 5 year old.

Well - yes and no. I see lots of 5 year olds through my job and most of them are able to listen and learn by that age, especially those who've done a year of school. A good number also aren't, and that's fine, and the ops son is one of them.

But is there not some responsibility on the parent to consider whether their own child is actually ready for such an activity, rather than just thinking yay- old enough, tick.

Families are struggling financially, worried about losing their homes, there are 13 weeks of school holidays, a single parent has 8, a two parent family still has 3 weeks they can't get annual leave for.

Yes, the priority is childcare. Fun for the kids is a bonus. Fun for those who run it? That's the last in the priority list. First is paying for house and food. Most families will make no apologies for that just now.

I've sent my child to this sort of thing for the odd session when they were about 9 or 10 and they would be bored stiff if they had to spend hours there. I think it would be better to find a proper childcare type facility that caters for young children. If they've only just reduced the age, perhaps they were a bit shortsighted in the needs of that age. I'd be frustrated if I spent the whole time escorting the same chikdren to the toilets. I know you said a talking to might stop them but how would you feel if they did that and your child had an accident? In my experience of parents, you'd be angry.