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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is it unreasonable to want to define women/men biologically these days?

36 replies

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 00:42

Posting in AIBU to get a hopefully more balanced view.

Is it wrong to want a biological meaning or definition to woman or man? I'm not comfortable with having my gender defined by a feeling as I believe my sex based body is significant to my lived experience as a woman and mother.

If anyone can be a woman, what does being a woman now mean?

I want to be free to be myself yet recognise my biological limitations or differences. Is this now blasphemy?

How can I be recognised as a woman when I'm not gender confirming? I'm in a heterosexual relationship but I'm playing the traditionally male role in terms of being the bread winner whilst my male partner is happy to be a stay at home parent. I don't see why this should affect us as male/female people playing the traditionally alternative roles in the family but I've not found society to accept this.

OP posts:
Luzina · 16/07/2023 00:52

There is a topic in the Feminism board which is appropriate place for this discussion

purpleme12 · 16/07/2023 00:53

She doesn't have to post it in the feminism board

HermeticDawn · 16/07/2023 00:56

Sex has nothing to do with gender conformity. I can confirm that I am just as female when I’ve earned more than my husband.

CheekyHobson · 16/07/2023 00:59

There is a topic in the Feminism board which is appropriate place for this discussion

Interesting that this topic apparently needs to be compartmentalised away when AIBUs around relationships, style, work, pet care, neighbourhood disputes rarely get told to move to the “correct” board.

MrsTerryPratchett · 16/07/2023 01:01

Luzina · 16/07/2023 00:52

There is a topic in the Feminism board which is appropriate place for this discussion

Do you really think only feminists are affected by how a woman is defined in law and life?

I don't.

HermeticDawn · 16/07/2023 01:02

MrsTerryPratchett · 16/07/2023 01:01

Do you really think only feminists are affected by how a woman is defined in law and life?

I don't.

Hear hear.

if you’re not concerned, you should be.

AutumnCrow · 16/07/2023 01:10

Luzina · 16/07/2023 00:52

There is a topic in the Feminism board which is appropriate place for this discussion

Don't be a wee daftie. It's a key topic in education, health, politics, social care, and culture. In law and life, as pp have said. That you can't see that is why it needs to be here.

Of course sex categories are crucial for policy around law, public facilities, education and sports. You surely don't have to be an aficionado of Harriet Taylor Mill to 'get it'.

Meanwhile, dress how you like. Just accept you can't magic up different chromosomes, and you'll never persuade me that it's possible to do so. And my beliefs are protected.

purpleme12 · 16/07/2023 01:10

👍

QuickWash · 16/07/2023 01:27

Of course it's important. Vital in fact.

Women are disadvantaged by their biological sex. They are not looked over for jobs because they like to wear dresses, or have long hair, they are looked over for opportunities in the workplace and elsewhere because they are "a risk" for maternity leave. Whether they're infertile, gay or choosing to be childless, they will be treated differently to men on the basis of their potential biological functions.

If we no longer classify humans by definable biological sex, the ability to track this stuff becomes lost. How do we monitor who opportunities go to? Who earns more? Who retires earlier in better pensions? Who works full time the whole time and who loses out by taking on society's caring needs? How can we possible jneonwhat were talking about if it's all based on self id and changing, shifting definitions. How can we draw out any conclusions and mitigate any disparity?

In healthcare, women and men have different reference ranges for really important blood tests. Kidney function, cardiac function, haematological functions...you'd all be giving the wrong treatment for the wrong things if you behaved as though sex didn't matter. Blood transfusions are known to be far riskier in some circumstances if different sex blood is used.

In sport, biological males have massive physical advantages over women. If we had no sex based categorisation, women would win nothing, ever. Why is that a good thing? They'd sustain more injuries and receive no prize money either.

In crime reporting and the justice system, how do we know what leads to certain sorts of crime, who is at risk of being involved, what works to change that trajectory, what kinds of crime are committed by people with certain experiences and how we can mitigate and reduce offending?How can we monitor what impact various CJ interventions have on both the offender and others? Like the report on the news this morning about parental imprisonment and the increased detrimental impact on children when it is the mother incarcerated.

How can we plan public services to meet the needs of populations if we deliberately make it harder to know who it is we are trying to meet the needs of. How do we ensure we meet public sector equality duty without due respect and accuracy when collect data about protected characteristics, of which sex is one?

We can be kind, accomodating, respectful and acknowledge someone's firmly held beliefs about their completely abstract ideas around gender identity. But we should never do this at the expense of maintaining a grip on reality and dealing in hard, immutable facts, like what biological sex we all are.

Quite apart from all that. I don't have a gender identity. I feel a bit weird every time I'm expected to tick a box and buy into the idea that I do. Just the same as I'm an atheist and therefore don't want to pick a religion from a list, I choose the "do not have a religion" box.

I know a lot of people, personally, professionally, socially, through school, and not one of them has ever referenced their gender identity in my interactions with them. They all know what sex they are though.

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 01:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

QuickWash · 16/07/2023 01:35

(And I didn't mean that to read that same sex attracted women won't ever have a baby either. I had my cousin who is the non pregnant partner in my head with this thought. But of course her wife is also gay, and very much having a baby!)

In fact, women who are fertile age but not obviously with a male partner could be even further discriminated against as fertility treatment requires so many appointments. A colleague who has gone solo with a sperm donor took about 3 years of IVF to get her positive test.

The point being that men are just assumed to be "safe" and I know several small businesses owners who won't employ women because they don't want to risk maternity pay/leave/conditions Men don't suffer that prejudice. And they're not unaffected because of their gender identity but because they are male.

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 01:38

HermeticDawn · 16/07/2023 01:02

Hear hear.

if you’re not concerned, you should be.

Of course not. Public policies affect all, and I allow our democratically elected politicians to make the final call on our policies, despite not being a tory myself

OP posts:
RegimentalSturgeon · 16/07/2023 01:44

In what way do you imagine you are not being recognised as a woman? You say you haven’t found society accepts this [you taking the traditional breadwinner role, etc] but I think you would be hard-pushed to find anyone genuinely thinking that makes you a ‘not-woman’. Or showering you with plaudits for brave and stunning blokedom (that one only works one way).
Sex is immutable and binary. Gender is constructed, mutable, intangible and [should be] irrelevant.
A rapist would recognise you as a woman straight away, as would a potential employer.

ThatsAboutEnoughOfThat · 16/07/2023 01:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Wanting to be able to distinguish between Women and Men where necessary makes YOU are TERF.

Welcome to the dark side.

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 01:48

RegimentalSturgeon · 16/07/2023 01:44

In what way do you imagine you are not being recognised as a woman? You say you haven’t found society accepts this [you taking the traditional breadwinner role, etc] but I think you would be hard-pushed to find anyone genuinely thinking that makes you a ‘not-woman’. Or showering you with plaudits for brave and stunning blokedom (that one only works one way).
Sex is immutable and binary. Gender is constructed, mutable, intangible and [should be] irrelevant.
A rapist would recognise you as a woman straight away, as would a potential employer.

I'm.not recognised as a woman according to my sexed body. Anyone opposing "trans women see women ' publicly is shunned. I have been treated as scum by people formerly close to me for nor agreeing that twaw

OP posts:
LittleApartmentOnThePrairie · 16/07/2023 01:55

QuickWash

great post. I agree with most of what you have written.

I’m a woman. I menstruate, have a uterus, gave birth, breast fed and now am in peri menopause. I don’t want to be called anything but a woman. I am a woman.

I also consider myself a feminist and feel that we are still working hard to undo years of discrimination. Layers and layers.

i am also clear that biological sex isn’t as binary as we like to think. I learned this 30 years ago in my undergrad degree. It’s more complex. What constitutes your sex is multi-factorial and each factor is on a continuum;

Hormones - various hormones in various quantities. Testosterone is usually higher in men. But. Some women have higher testosterone. Some men have lower. Etc

Body size and shape.

Even our genitalia are not completely binary.

So what is it that makes my biological sex female? What if I was born without a uterus or I have an hysterectomy? What if my genitalia looked a bit more ‘male’? what if my testosterone levels were higher? What if I was more hairy?

Gender identity then is even more complex. Many more factors and continuums. Less binary. We have always had ‘effeminate men’ and ‘Tom boys’. It’s never been binary. Not really.

I like the idea of people being able express themselves authentically without being ‘othered’. I want to live in an inclusive world where we see the person inside and don’t get hung up on the body that carries them around and the prejudices that come with that.

I think it’s so complex that there isn’t a clear way forward, and these are certainly interesting times, but I agree wholeheartedly that protecting the rights of one group shouldn’t come at the cost of another group.

RegimentalSturgeon · 16/07/2023 01:58

I'm not recognised as a woman according to my sexed body.

I can assure you you are, and will reap all the disadvantages that go with that. You’ll be one of the ones expected to budge up and be kind - pretty much an infallible XX chromosome detector, that.
Not mouthing the biologically illiterate platitudes of the current fashionable delusion might get you shunned; it won’t get you mis-sexed.

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 02:01

LittleApartmentOnThePrairie · 16/07/2023 01:55

QuickWash

great post. I agree with most of what you have written.

I’m a woman. I menstruate, have a uterus, gave birth, breast fed and now am in peri menopause. I don’t want to be called anything but a woman. I am a woman.

I also consider myself a feminist and feel that we are still working hard to undo years of discrimination. Layers and layers.

i am also clear that biological sex isn’t as binary as we like to think. I learned this 30 years ago in my undergrad degree. It’s more complex. What constitutes your sex is multi-factorial and each factor is on a continuum;

Hormones - various hormones in various quantities. Testosterone is usually higher in men. But. Some women have higher testosterone. Some men have lower. Etc

Body size and shape.

Even our genitalia are not completely binary.

So what is it that makes my biological sex female? What if I was born without a uterus or I have an hysterectomy? What if my genitalia looked a bit more ‘male’? what if my testosterone levels were higher? What if I was more hairy?

Gender identity then is even more complex. Many more factors and continuums. Less binary. We have always had ‘effeminate men’ and ‘Tom boys’. It’s never been binary. Not really.

I like the idea of people being able express themselves authentically without being ‘othered’. I want to live in an inclusive world where we see the person inside and don’t get hung up on the body that carries them around and the prejudices that come with that.

I think it’s so complex that there isn’t a clear way forward, and these are certainly interesting times, but I agree wholeheartedly that protecting the rights of one group shouldn’t come at the cost of another group.

OK, but what if I don't want to have to express anything?

I'm.happy to just be me, no labels or pronouns. I don't want to have a gender identity, or be non binary.

I'd like to just be a person. The one identity that's no longer allowed.

OP posts:
LittleApartmentOnThePrairie · 16/07/2023 02:04

I think a world in which we just see people as people and get to know the ‘them’ inside without labelling them sounds great!

WandaWonder · 16/07/2023 02:05

So what is the difference in a woman and a female?

LittleApartmentOnThePrairie · 16/07/2023 02:06

I guess for some things it’s still essential to know - medically. Or helpful to know - crime stats, pay stats.

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 02:07

WandaWonder · 16/07/2023 02:05

So what is the difference in a woman and a female?

There isn't one, say I.

But that's the problem. The outside world disagrees

OP posts:
CrazyArmadilloLady · 16/07/2023 02:23

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 01:38

Of course not. Public policies affect all, and I allow our democratically elected politicians to make the final call on our policies, despite not being a tory myself

Wow.

You’re a TERF, you do realise?

CrazyArmadilloLady · 16/07/2023 02:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Sorry - meant to quote this ^^ obviously.

DogbertMcDogglesworth · 16/07/2023 02:24

As far as I'm concerned, there are two sexes, male and female.
No such thing as gender in my world, I refuse to even use that word.
There are boys and girls, men and women, male and female. That's it as far as I'm concerned.
Anyone trying to call me any other, such as cis woman, whatever the hell that is, will feel my wrath.
I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about that.