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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is it unreasonable to want to define women/men biologically these days?

36 replies

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 00:42

Posting in AIBU to get a hopefully more balanced view.

Is it wrong to want a biological meaning or definition to woman or man? I'm not comfortable with having my gender defined by a feeling as I believe my sex based body is significant to my lived experience as a woman and mother.

If anyone can be a woman, what does being a woman now mean?

I want to be free to be myself yet recognise my biological limitations or differences. Is this now blasphemy?

How can I be recognised as a woman when I'm not gender confirming? I'm in a heterosexual relationship but I'm playing the traditionally male role in terms of being the bread winner whilst my male partner is happy to be a stay at home parent. I don't see why this should affect us as male/female people playing the traditionally alternative roles in the family but I've not found society to accept this.

OP posts:
PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 02:25

CrazyArmadilloLady · 16/07/2023 02:23

Wow.

You’re a TERF, you do realise?

Is that bad? If so why?

OP posts:
CrazyArmadilloLady · 16/07/2023 02:26

DogbertMcDogglesworth · 16/07/2023 02:24

As far as I'm concerned, there are two sexes, male and female.
No such thing as gender in my world, I refuse to even use that word.
There are boys and girls, men and women, male and female. That's it as far as I'm concerned.
Anyone trying to call me any other, such as cis woman, whatever the hell that is, will feel my wrath.
I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about that.

You’re 100% right.

’Gender’ is indefinable claptrap.

Sex matters.

LordSalem · 16/07/2023 02:55

I’m just as female as I've always been. Certainly didn’t have the option to peruse when I was a teenager or younger. It's my life, my body. I’m female. I had a baby of my own. 32 years in, still female. Being a woman hasn't changed. I certainly don't feel any less of one regardless of the new agendas.
I don’t feel the need to express anything, though I'm sure someone will gobble this up to spout what they think are "relevant terms" and imply ownership to any one of a particular popular group to explain me. Not that I asked 🤷🏻‍♀️

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 16/07/2023 03:02

Women are Adult human females.
Nothing more, never less.
I hate gender ideology, it's insidious, harmful and dangerous, mainly to women and children and I do what I can to fight back against it.

h1d1ng1npla1ns1ght · 16/07/2023 06:22

The difference between woman and female is that woman is a noun we use for humans specifically and female can be used for any animal.
quickwash you put so succinctly what I was thinking.
OP I have no gender identity either but I’m not agender or non binary, I’m a woman. I think a lot more women that we know about feel this way. Imagine asking your grandmother what her gender identity was. I think about a tv show character who says she doesn’t have to remind people she’s a woman because they never let her forget it.

orangeleavesinautumn · 16/07/2023 06:34

DogbertMcDogglesworth · 16/07/2023 02:24

As far as I'm concerned, there are two sexes, male and female.
No such thing as gender in my world, I refuse to even use that word.
There are boys and girls, men and women, male and female. That's it as far as I'm concerned.
Anyone trying to call me any other, such as cis woman, whatever the hell that is, will feel my wrath.
I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about that.

I agree with you.

Men are male, if they wear dresses, have long hair, paint their nails pink, put on make up, totter around in size 11 high heals, that is absolutely fine- they can do that to their heart's content - and they are still male.

Women are female. I have short hair, no boobs and frequently in clothes I buy from the men's department, due to them being cheaper, more practical and fitting better. I am absolutely 100% female.

Since having my boobs removed, I have to make a conscious effort to shop in the men's department as woman's clothes don't fit if you are flat chested - I realise that in the past I never even noticed the men's and women's signposting in shops, just looked all over for "clothes" but still normally came out with "men's" clothing, as they are cheaper and more practical.

I had a similar thread yesterday - I will find it for you and link it

itsgettingweird · 16/07/2023 06:37

QuickWash · 16/07/2023 01:27

Of course it's important. Vital in fact.

Women are disadvantaged by their biological sex. They are not looked over for jobs because they like to wear dresses, or have long hair, they are looked over for opportunities in the workplace and elsewhere because they are "a risk" for maternity leave. Whether they're infertile, gay or choosing to be childless, they will be treated differently to men on the basis of their potential biological functions.

If we no longer classify humans by definable biological sex, the ability to track this stuff becomes lost. How do we monitor who opportunities go to? Who earns more? Who retires earlier in better pensions? Who works full time the whole time and who loses out by taking on society's caring needs? How can we possible jneonwhat were talking about if it's all based on self id and changing, shifting definitions. How can we draw out any conclusions and mitigate any disparity?

In healthcare, women and men have different reference ranges for really important blood tests. Kidney function, cardiac function, haematological functions...you'd all be giving the wrong treatment for the wrong things if you behaved as though sex didn't matter. Blood transfusions are known to be far riskier in some circumstances if different sex blood is used.

In sport, biological males have massive physical advantages over women. If we had no sex based categorisation, women would win nothing, ever. Why is that a good thing? They'd sustain more injuries and receive no prize money either.

In crime reporting and the justice system, how do we know what leads to certain sorts of crime, who is at risk of being involved, what works to change that trajectory, what kinds of crime are committed by people with certain experiences and how we can mitigate and reduce offending?How can we monitor what impact various CJ interventions have on both the offender and others? Like the report on the news this morning about parental imprisonment and the increased detrimental impact on children when it is the mother incarcerated.

How can we plan public services to meet the needs of populations if we deliberately make it harder to know who it is we are trying to meet the needs of. How do we ensure we meet public sector equality duty without due respect and accuracy when collect data about protected characteristics, of which sex is one?

We can be kind, accomodating, respectful and acknowledge someone's firmly held beliefs about their completely abstract ideas around gender identity. But we should never do this at the expense of maintaining a grip on reality and dealing in hard, immutable facts, like what biological sex we all are.

Quite apart from all that. I don't have a gender identity. I feel a bit weird every time I'm expected to tick a box and buy into the idea that I do. Just the same as I'm an atheist and therefore don't want to pick a religion from a list, I choose the "do not have a religion" box.

I know a lot of people, personally, professionally, socially, through school, and not one of them has ever referenced their gender identity in my interactions with them. They all know what sex they are though.

This is a really important post. Very well written and highlights such a broader issue with people simply being able to say "but I feel"

orangeleavesinautumn · 16/07/2023 06:37

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 02:25

Is that bad? If so why?

no, being a TERF is not bad

Noicant · 16/07/2023 06:39

I think people are pretty quick to think sex matters when it comes to er sex. Reminds me of that “not for dating purposes bloke” who seemed to know pretty accurately what a woman is when he wants to shag one. It’s when it only affects women negatively no-one gives a shit, including some women oddly.

itsgettingweird · 16/07/2023 06:40

DogbertMcDogglesworth · 16/07/2023 02:24

As far as I'm concerned, there are two sexes, male and female.
No such thing as gender in my world, I refuse to even use that word.
There are boys and girls, men and women, male and female. That's it as far as I'm concerned.
Anyone trying to call me any other, such as cis woman, whatever the hell that is, will feel my wrath.
I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about that.

Quite simply - YES!!!!

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