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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To describe my brother's actions as a sexual assault

85 replies

Stillanothernamechange · 12/07/2023 09:56

My brother lives with my family (me, DH, 2 small children). He is neurodivergent and sometimes finds life a challenge. But usually he is an extremely kind, selfless person.

Earlier this year we had an au pair who was romantically interested in him (at some point she drunkenly told him that she was falling in love with him). I made it pretty clear to him that it was not appropriate for him to be pursuing a romantic relationship with her; she's (early-mid-20s) over 10 years younger than him, the power imbalance obviously was huge, and frankly I didn't want to have to deal with the complications that could arise from a relationship turning sour between two people living in my house. They both told me they weren't interested in a relationship with each other (my brother was just coming out of a long and, in my opinion, horrible relationship).

They were often going out together or staying up late drinking together; I was happy for her that she had fun things to do but to be perfectly honest the late nights sometimes led to her being tired and grumpy when she was supposed to be working (and my brother's drinking has been a concern for a long time). What I didn't know was that when they were drunk they were - I guess the best term would be 'fooling around' (I have zero interest in learning the details; I know they weren't sleeping together). What I also didn't know was that at some point this did turn sour from the au pair's point of view, and that my brother didn't notice. (My best guess having spoken to her a bit is that she realised he also wasn't interested in a relationship with her, and given their continuing physical contact she felt a bit used and hurt - despite her saying the same about him. That's just my conjecture though.)

This all came to a head a month or so ago when they got home at 2am, my brother woke us up being loud and drunk, and the next morning we found out that one of his friends (I'm going to call him Jack) had slept on the au pair's floor. We had a serious conversation with my brother about his drinking, and spelled out that he had a choice to make between his current lifestyle and continuing to live in our home. AFTER having that conversation with him, the au pair (this is starting to feel a bit depersonalising; let's call her Sophie) said she needed to talk to us. She told us that the reason 'Jack' had slept on her floor is because he'd witnessed my brother's behaviour towards 'Sophie' and been horrified, and felt that she might need some security. Sophie told us that for some time she'd been avoiding my brother when he was drunk, because he was a bit handsy. She didn't tell us exactly what had been happening, and the conversation was clearly extremely difficult for her so I wasn't pressing her for details. The next day I spoke to Jack and he described what my brother had done as 'sort of tonguing her neck'. The important point here really is that an independent witness saw the behaviour, clearly understood that it wasn't consensual, and was appalled by it (Jack said many times that if he hadn't witnessed this himself he never would have believed my brother would have done something like this).

My husband and I were obviously completely horrified. This is a young woman we feel responsible for who didn't feel safe in her own living space because of predatory behaviour. My mum came down on the train and spent the evening talking to my brother, and he enrolled in an alcoholics programme. Sophie said she wasn't 'bothered' about it, but a week or so later she left giving us 3 days notice. There were, unrelated, issues with Sophie: we had noticed that things she said didn't always match up to her behaviour, and the day she gave us notice the manager of a local community centre had just contacted me and told me Sophie wasn't taking care of our toddler at all when they visited it together, to the point where he was at risk of seriously hurting himself (another parent on the school run has since told me he observed concerning behaviour by her around our children). But this is getting really long so I guess I'd better cut to my real issue, which is that I feel some of my family are massively minimising what my brother did. I spoke to my other brother about it recently and when I described it as sexual assault, he said "a lot of the rhetoric used regarding that incident has been completely over the top" and that Sophie "had given [my brother] reason on previous occasions to believe that she was consenting". I still can't believe that a member of my own family thinks like this about sexual assault - like, what the fuck is the relevance of her consenting on a previous occasion?

So: AIBU? Is this an extremely serious event which everyone in the family should be taking seriously? Or an understandable drunken mistake? For the record, the 'drunken octopus-hands' brother, as far as I know, is taking it seriously. It's the other one who doesn't seem to be.

OP posts:
ejbaxa · 12/07/2023 14:05

Quitelikeit · 12/07/2023 10:14

The Sexual Offences Act 2003 says that someone commits sexual assault if all of the following happens:

  • They intentionally touch another person.
  • The touching is sexual.
  • The other person does not consent to the touching.
  • They do not reasonably believe that the other person consents.
  • The touching can be with any part of the body or with anything else.

Yes - I wonder whether he “reasonably believed” that she consented - or could say he reasonably believed - based on the previous fooling around?

I think you need to separate the legality of the situation from the fact that he is handsy/predatory.

legally this wouldn’t get to court (IMO) but in reality and morally, he need to stop putting his hands on women unless he is certain they are consenting because it’s disgraceful and upsetting to them - she’s left, after all

sadlittlelifejane · 12/07/2023 14:10

Testina · 12/07/2023 14:01

So this thread is about people minimising sexual assault, yet you keep using the word “handsy” and have even named him Handsy Brother”? Can you stop that? Handsy itself is a minimising term. And yes, he sexually assaulted her.

Who is minimising sexual assault? Someone being "handsy" doesn't = sexual assault. We don't know what happened, neither does OP really. Stop being dramatic

JusthereforXmas · 12/07/2023 14:12

lines that stood out to me:

'She told us that the reason 'Jack' had slept on her floor is because he'd witnessed my brother's behavior towards her and been horrified, and felt that she might need some security.'

'Sophie said she wasn't 'bothered' about it'

He slept on her floor because HE decided it was inappropriate and HE decided she needed security... if anything THIS is creepy, he made a choice for her then wrangled his way into her personal space while she slept. That has some seriously creepy vibes too it.

Also am I misunderstanding or did she herself say shes not actually bothered by what happened?

Surely if she herself is saying she wasn't bothered by it then whatever 'Jack' thinks he saw or thinks is appropriate is utterly irreverent right? Jack has no say in the relationship.

Elephantinasandstorm · 12/07/2023 14:26

I am assuming Sophie wasn't British?
It would explain quite a lot of bits people here can't comprehend.
Eg she was uncomfortable but didn't report because it's not big thingwhere she is frlm and police woul just roll their eyes. I wouldn't either. Frankly though, most british women wouldn't call police for "neck slobbering" either especially when done by boss's sibling...
Friendliness is different in other places and in UK can be well confused with flirting in UK.
Was the issues around her caring for kids before all this happened or after?

Quitelikeit · 12/07/2023 14:43

Op

You are getting a hard time here

I think it is great that you care so deeply about your brother

When people ask if it meets the criteria for a SA charge then the question is did he reasonably believe she would consent?

My husband has randomly touched me before and I’ve told him to get off, is that SA? Who knows! He’s not a monster though and I certainly wouldn’t be kicking him out!

Is it reasonable to believe your wife wants to be touched just because she’s your wife, she’s allowed it many times before etc……

Is it the case that they had been fooling around but not in front of the friend and your brother dropped his guard but the girl wanted to keep up the facade? Incase they got in bother from you?

BeverlyHa · 12/07/2023 14:50

your life is just a mess, is your brother special needs? you have to accomodate him somewhere else.

Quitelikeit · 12/07/2023 14:52

Her life is not a mess! How rude!

Just because her brother is ND!

I find that offensive

How else do you think ND people manage? With bloody govt help? If so go and do your research

TwoFluffyDogsOnMyBed · 12/07/2023 14:52

I’m not sure why you’re so keen to label your brother a sexual predator that you’re asking for backup on here. You know full well that Mumsnet is biased and always takes the side of the woman. It sounds like your brother was being an irritating sex pest but that’s all.

Also, you said that you didn’t want the relationship to happen in the first place. Now much as your brother sounds a bit of a pain, the house belongs to him too and what right do you have to tell him who he can have a relationship with?

Sophie sounds very immature and messed up and so does your brother. She’s not the innocent party in all this. It’s likely that the friend slept in her room because he thought he was in with a chance.

The biggest issue here is that your child was being put in danger. I find it odd that you’re so keen to take the side of the person who was meant to be looking after your child and was failing to do so.

Stillanothernamechange · 12/07/2023 15:12

Quitelikeit · 12/07/2023 14:43

Op

You are getting a hard time here

I think it is great that you care so deeply about your brother

When people ask if it meets the criteria for a SA charge then the question is did he reasonably believe she would consent?

My husband has randomly touched me before and I’ve told him to get off, is that SA? Who knows! He’s not a monster though and I certainly wouldn’t be kicking him out!

Is it reasonable to believe your wife wants to be touched just because she’s your wife, she’s allowed it many times before etc……

Is it the case that they had been fooling around but not in front of the friend and your brother dropped his guard but the girl wanted to keep up the facade? Incase they got in bother from you?

Thank you - it is what I expect from AIBU and I am trying to ignore the more batshitty responses 😁(although there was one poster who was just being offensive and - ironically - shit-stirring, who I've reported). I feel the majority of replies have been considered and helpful, and I do value that. I think this has helped me consolidate how best to approach this with the rest of my family.

OP posts:
DMLady · 12/07/2023 18:47

MinimalistMe · 12/07/2023 11:57

I wasn't trying to be helpful, I was stating a fact.

An opinion, actually.

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