to ask solicitors specifically (but also anyone in a post grad job) about micromanagement

[PinkStarAtNight]

Hi all. Posting here for traffic because although I would love to hear from practicing solicitors (as I am interested in training for that role), I would also welcome input from all those in post graduate level jobs or jobs that pay at least £40k per year on this question...

The question is about the level of micromanagement in your job (whether that's as a solicitor or any post graduate job that you would need to train for/complete a masters). Apologies in advance for the long post, I have been told many times I'm a rambler, but I want to get across exactly what's its like in my current role so that people can tell me whether its the same in theirs, iyswim?

So presently I am working in a contact centre. I have a degree in English from a good university. I am seriously considering studying for a masters degree that will qualify me for more of a career, hopefully with a higher salary and a more flexible working environment, because I don't know whether I can do this sort of work for the rest of my life. I am interested in law specifically as its something I've always felt drawn to and after much research I think my skills could be well utilised and I would enjoy the work. I am open to other career options though, hence also opening this up to people in other post graduate roles. I'm struggling to find an answer online to whether a law firm, or any other office based post graduate role, would be run in the same way as my current office. So I'm asking the mumsnet public for help! If you stick with my post to the end I will be so grateful and any input or advice is much appreciated.

My main issue with contact centre work is the extreme level of micromanaging, being constantly monitored and having your day and your movements planned and tracked down to the last second.

So, if your shift starts at 9am you are expected to login and press the 'button' for going 'live' at precisely 9am. Pressing the button 5 seconds past 9 would count as a late, even though your manager has seen you walk into the office at quarter to 9.

Your lunches and breaks are timed in the same way - so as soon as you press the button for being on lunch or break the timer starts counting like a stopwatch and again, 5 seconds late pressing the button to change from 'lunch' to whatever task you're supposed to be doing that afternoon is counted as a late. However, if you were, say, a minute EARLY logging in or coming back from lunch, they pull you up on that too because that also 'affects your stats' and 'your adherence' to the schedule. It's just as bad to start work early/not take enough breaks as it is to be late or to take too many breaks. Its all about constantly having yourself in the right 'code' - whether that's the code for 'meeting', 'lunch', 'break', 'emails', 'calls', 'admin' etc

If you have a meeting at 11am that you attend (and everyone sees you there) but you forgot to put yourself in the 'meeting code' at exactly 11am and come out of it at exactly 11:30, you are in trouble. Your code said you were in 'admin' so it looks like you didn't attend the meeting. Even though everyone fucking saw you there If the meeting overruns by ten minutes, you must email the team who create the schedules to let them know that it overran so that they can edit it on your schedule. Otherwise those ten minutes unnacoubted for will 'affect your stats' and 'bring down your adherence'.

You get a scheduled lunch break and then 20 minutes of 'break time' that apparently can be used whenever you chose throughout the day, but they 'suggest' that you take ten minutes in the morning and ten minutes in the afternoon. If you don't allocate the minutes this way they will have a meeting with you. Obviously, whilst in the correct meeting code

This daily allowance of 20 minutes includes loo breaks, getting up to make a coffee, going to get something from your bag, anything that you need to do away from your desk outside your designated lunch break. Personally I find that my loo breaks alone are using up the 20 minute daily allowance so I don't actually get a break which is just to make a coffee or sit outside/chat to people. I have ten minutes in the morning to go to the loo and ten minutes in the afternoon to go to the loo. Another loo break can be had during lunch but that of course eats into my lunch break, which when you only have 30 mins for lunch and the loos are across the office and downstairs, doesn't leave you with that much time to eat and actually feel like you've had a proper break away from work.

I want to make it clear that I'm not work shy. I am willing to work hard at something that matters and that I care about. But personally I feel that the constant micromanagement of my day and how I work feels suffocating. I'm the type of person who will actually stay late after work to get something done/check my emails at the weekend etc because I care about doing a good job...But I have actually been pulled up on this and asked not to by my manager, because 'its important to have a good work/life balance.' And yet, my loo breaks whilst working are timed to the second.

I would rather have a job where I stay late/log on at weekends but I can actually get up to go to the toilet any time I need to, or go to the kitchen and make a coffee, and not be rushing there and back because the stopwatch is ticking and my allocated break minutes are running out, and if I'm even 5 seconds late changing the code it will go down as a 'late'.

So, my question is:
Do law firms work this way? Because as much as I would love to put the time (and money) into qualifying as a solicitor and while I do have a passion for the career, I don't feel that there's much point getting myself into debt and spending years working hard to retrain if I'm essentially going to end up in a role that is micromanaged in the same way as the one I'm in now, higher salary or not.

Having my loo breaks timed to the second and my life (whilst at work, which is a lot of it) tracked and controlled so much is really grinding me down and I want to know that if I save up to do a masters I am heading for a career that will be different to this. I don't mean I want an 'easy' job, or that I don't want to work hard. On the contrary, I want a job that challenges me, that really makes a difference and I'm prepared to work hard at it - I just need be able to go to the bloody loo whenever I need to, or make myself a coffee if I want, and to not have to email someone every time a meeting overruns by a few minutes. I am honestly sick of hearing the words 'it will affect your stats' and 'that will negatively impact your adherence'.

So I suppose the question is about micromanagement. Not just for law firms though as I'm not 100% decided on law just yet - I'm genuinely interested if this is just a call centre thing or whether this type of micromanagement exists in other jobs, specifically post graduate level jobs, because if it does then I won't waste money on re-training.

Thank you so much if you read through all of that, I hope it makes sense and I really appreciate any input

I worked in the next call centre years ago and it was like this. No other job I've ever had has been though. It's beyond shit.
I do a qualified post grad job and no o e cares how long you spend in the loo!

This is typical for a call centre. Plenty of other jobs can involve micromanaging, and you can’t really say all jobs in X or Y industries don’t micromanage because ultimately it depends on the management you are working under but call centres are notorious for it in particular.

Sounds horrific OP, I couldn’t work like that. I’m not in law, but work in investment banking. I‘m paid to do a job and deliver results. Nobody monitors or cares when I start or finish work, when I go to the loo or have a coffee. I can take 20 mins to do the school run if needed and nobody would even notice, much less care, as long as I’m delivering high quality work.

No it’s not like that. You log what you are doing to bill the client but what you describe sounds insane and frankly like a nightmare dystopian existence.

That said I would be careful about retraining law is extremely competitive you would want to secure a training contract before sinking in the time and effort. There are easier ways of escaping where you are.

All law firms are different, a smaller high street type firm would likely be more relaxed than a huge one. I was a solicitor in a small firm and didn't feel micromanaged in the way you describe.

But - time recording is the norm in most fields, and you record in 6 minute blocks. A lot of firms have "billable hours" targets and make you record time for eg going to the loo (under non-chargeable time). It can be very pressurised.

Your post is quite long and wordy if you train as a lawyer you will need to be far more concise and clear. Sorry but that did leap out at me.

I’ve worked in every type (high street/mid level and magic circle) and never seen anything approaching that.

These replies have made me feel like there is hope, thank you! Also good to know I'm not the crazy one for hating it. The way they talk about it makes it sound like its all completely normal and makes sense, and if you don't like it then you clearly don't want to work hard. Its good to hear there is a world outside of this that seems to be sane!

@TheaBrandt I completely appreciate what you're saying about law. This is the reason I said I wasn't 100% decided on law as a path yet. Although I do feel passionate about it and prepared to work hard, I know its not just about that and I am well aware of the need for a training contract. I'm currently in the process of looking for one in the location I would need, and whether or not I do it will depend on this. I just also wanted to make sure that a law firm wouldn't be run the same way as a contact centre before I invest so much time and money into it. Thanks for your input :)

I've worked in several firms and there has been nothing like that. Different departments have different views on timekeeping. Some care if you are at your desk by 9 or 9:30 and some don't as long as the work gets done. They all required you to record your day in six minute units thought which is extremely tedious.

I'm your girl!

I used to work in a call centre (it was just as you described) and now work in law.

It's completely different. If you are working for a law firm in a client facing role, you will have to account for every minute of that particular work as that is how it is billed.

If you are in house then it's very flexible but you may have to pull all nighters etc when required.

I now work in court mostly, and spend a lot of time waiting around. Nobody really has a clue what I'm doing so long as I rock up on time with the right documentation.

Honestly, working in a call centre is soul destroying. Go for it - take that leap of faith.

So I'm in tax advisory and while we do have to complete timesheets to record chargeable hours, it's self-filled. It isn't monitored per se either although some teams have chargeability targets (80% billable hours) but I don't.

Considering I'm mid-level in my firm, I have a lot of autonomy. If I want to take a longer lunch that's fine, as long as it's in my diary and I make up the hours. Gym class? Sure. Want to start late/finish late? Sure (as a one off, not all the time).

I have 30 mins out in the afternoon to collect my daughter, then work for an extra 45 mins to finish my day.

I am ATT/CTA qualified which took three years. In a top 10 firm.

I'm also aware of this and was sure that someone would point it out haha
It's been a lifelong weakness of mine since school. I'm aware I will need to work it.

With the hesitations around law in mind though, I'm open to suggestions of other post graduate careers that I could train for with an English degree. Only real requirement for consideration is that I can go to the loo when I want :)

How about something in governance? It’s connected to law as well as the guiding principles and practices of an organisation. One of my friends is the Head of Governance for an NHS Trust and earns very decently, plus it ultimately it goes back to the greater good. The conciseness thing will come. I work in communications and thought I was good at being to the point until I had a job where my boss was very zealous. Annoying at the time, but now I think, thanks Zoe, you were right! I hate micromanagement too, it’s the opposite of what I need to thrive in any working environment. It’s the biggest turn off in any job, I’ve had it twice and both times I served a year and then buggered off.

I'm an accountant. I used to work in practice and had to track time, as pp said, in 6 minute units. As long as you do your hours and behave like a professional, no one cares.
If you're late to a client, take long lunches, leave early, don't get the job done, your work is lazy or sloppy or over budget without clear justification - it's a significant problem.
If you arrive on an office day at 9.30 having communicated with your manager or team that you had to go via the dry cleaner, or have to pop out to the dentist, and will stay late or work lunch to make up, that's normal and reasonable in my experience.
In my experience professional services firms know that they will sometimes need your goodwill and that to get this they must give it as well.

skim read only. But no, there isn’t the same. But your work will be supervised closely in the early days especially and you will be expected to do long hours, much longer than you are contracted for. Sometimes weekend work too. No overtime/ extra pay.

Oh yes and 6 minute units of time recording. As you progress you will have targets for billable hours (in those 6m increments).

With law firms and consulting firms, you are billing your client for your time. So, depending on the firm and their policies, you will be recording your time in 6min to 30min increments. If you can't deal with that stress, then you might consider in-house legal work.

Tax is basically law with some numbers thrown in. Less competitive than law to get into.

I'm a lawyer. It varies a huge amount. My current firm I have loads of autonomy and flexibility, as long as the fees roll in and I get the job done they're pretty chilled about exactly how I do it (helps that I'm experienced and senior etc). However previous firm was awful, micromanaging to the max!

Even in current job though I have to time record so work can be billed and we time record everything in 6 minute units. So on the one hand every 6 minutes of my day is noted but on the other if I spend ages on something non billable like training or business development no one chases me (probably because of seniority though I guess).

It's an area that you have to have supervision and at the start of your career that will of necessity be more intense. Also, not many brand new lawyers will be on 40k, depending on area of work you might never get that much.

I'm in law (partner in City firm) and its nothing like call centre work. I did that once for about 6 months for a water utility company and yes we did get timed on our toilet breaks etc. My firm is quite flexible and the lawyers are treated like adults. Everyone has time and billing targets and we're expected to be working during core hours 10-4 and in the office twice a week on average but other than that it's up to the individual how when and where they meet those targets. I would say that there is an element of micromanagement if people aren't meeting target of recording 6.5 chargeable hours a day but to be honest if there's plenty of work then it isn't difficult. We do have to have 121 audits with the lawyers going through their matters and getting them to bill or write off wip. They should really be proactive in doing that themselves so when they're not the audits do feel like a "telling off". But if you're organised and proactive that shouldn't happen. When I work from home I tend to work a longer day but with more breaks. So I'll fit in a workout, a dentist appointment, do school run, put some washing away etc. Everyone does and it's fine as long as the work gets done!

This quote sums up how I ended up in tax advisory. I solve problems and use the law to do it.

I did Law at university and quickly realised I didn't want to be a solicitor but rather be law adjacent.

Also meant to say you don't necessarily need to go down the training contract route. I've a colleague qualifying via SQE route and lots who have done CILEX route

What sort of industry are you in? If you fancy law then risk management or compliance might be a good option and you don't need to retrain. Lots of people work their way up to that sort of role in an organisation.

OP. Law isn't the only thing you could retrain in. If you were to take the certificate in market research with the MRS, it would open up jobs in market and social research.

If your original background is in English, you might find that qualitative research suits you well, as it requires crafting a good narrative.

Market/social research is even less micromanaged than law. You have to submit timesheets at the end of the week, but it's not in 6 minute increments, as the industry doesn't do billable hours.

You're just expected to keep a reasonably accurate record of what proportion of your contracted hours went on which project, and submit this in a timesheet at the end of the week.

A lot of the big market research firms are offering hybrid working and flexible hours as standard now, too.

Sorry to jump on this but I've been interested in this type of thing for years but can't for the life of me figure out how to break into it?! I have a good law degree from a few years ago, worked in insurance claims handling for a few years now have moved to completely different jobs in the NHS but that I think still have relevant skills/experience etc. I just don't know how to break into these areas because whenever I see job vacancies they always say they want someone who is very experienced already, I never see entry-level type roles in these areas?