to ask solicitors specifically (but also anyone in a post grad job) about micromanagement

[PinkStarAtNight]

Hi all. Posting here for traffic because although I would love to hear from practicing solicitors (as I am interested in training for that role), I would also welcome input from all those in post graduate level jobs or jobs that pay at least £40k per year on this question...

The question is about the level of micromanagement in your job (whether that's as a solicitor or any post graduate job that you would need to train for/complete a masters). Apologies in advance for the long post, I have been told many times I'm a rambler, but I want to get across exactly what's its like in my current role so that people can tell me whether its the same in theirs, iyswim?

So presently I am working in a contact centre. I have a degree in English from a good university. I am seriously considering studying for a masters degree that will qualify me for more of a career, hopefully with a higher salary and a more flexible working environment, because I don't know whether I can do this sort of work for the rest of my life. I am interested in law specifically as its something I've always felt drawn to and after much research I think my skills could be well utilised and I would enjoy the work. I am open to other career options though, hence also opening this up to people in other post graduate roles. I'm struggling to find an answer online to whether a law firm, or any other office based post graduate role, would be run in the same way as my current office. So I'm asking the mumsnet public for help! If you stick with my post to the end I will be so grateful and any input or advice is much appreciated.

My main issue with contact centre work is the extreme level of micromanaging, being constantly monitored and having your day and your movements planned and tracked down to the last second.

So, if your shift starts at 9am you are expected to login and press the 'button' for going 'live' at precisely 9am. Pressing the button 5 seconds past 9 would count as a late, even though your manager has seen you walk into the office at quarter to 9.

Your lunches and breaks are timed in the same way - so as soon as you press the button for being on lunch or break the timer starts counting like a stopwatch and again, 5 seconds late pressing the button to change from 'lunch' to whatever task you're supposed to be doing that afternoon is counted as a late. However, if you were, say, a minute EARLY logging in or coming back from lunch, they pull you up on that too because that also 'affects your stats' and 'your adherence' to the schedule. It's just as bad to start work early/not take enough breaks as it is to be late or to take too many breaks. Its all about constantly having yourself in the right 'code' - whether that's the code for 'meeting', 'lunch', 'break', 'emails', 'calls', 'admin' etc

If you have a meeting at 11am that you attend (and everyone sees you there) but you forgot to put yourself in the 'meeting code' at exactly 11am and come out of it at exactly 11:30, you are in trouble. Your code said you were in 'admin' so it looks like you didn't attend the meeting. Even though everyone fucking saw you there If the meeting overruns by ten minutes, you must email the team who create the schedules to let them know that it overran so that they can edit it on your schedule. Otherwise those ten minutes unnacoubted for will 'affect your stats' and 'bring down your adherence'.

You get a scheduled lunch break and then 20 minutes of 'break time' that apparently can be used whenever you chose throughout the day, but they 'suggest' that you take ten minutes in the morning and ten minutes in the afternoon. If you don't allocate the minutes this way they will have a meeting with you. Obviously, whilst in the correct meeting code

This daily allowance of 20 minutes includes loo breaks, getting up to make a coffee, going to get something from your bag, anything that you need to do away from your desk outside your designated lunch break. Personally I find that my loo breaks alone are using up the 20 minute daily allowance so I don't actually get a break which is just to make a coffee or sit outside/chat to people. I have ten minutes in the morning to go to the loo and ten minutes in the afternoon to go to the loo. Another loo break can be had during lunch but that of course eats into my lunch break, which when you only have 30 mins for lunch and the loos are across the office and downstairs, doesn't leave you with that much time to eat and actually feel like you've had a proper break away from work.

I want to make it clear that I'm not work shy. I am willing to work hard at something that matters and that I care about. But personally I feel that the constant micromanagement of my day and how I work feels suffocating. I'm the type of person who will actually stay late after work to get something done/check my emails at the weekend etc because I care about doing a good job...But I have actually been pulled up on this and asked not to by my manager, because 'its important to have a good work/life balance.' And yet, my loo breaks whilst working are timed to the second.

I would rather have a job where I stay late/log on at weekends but I can actually get up to go to the toilet any time I need to, or go to the kitchen and make a coffee, and not be rushing there and back because the stopwatch is ticking and my allocated break minutes are running out, and if I'm even 5 seconds late changing the code it will go down as a 'late'.

So, my question is:
Do law firms work this way? Because as much as I would love to put the time (and money) into qualifying as a solicitor and while I do have a passion for the career, I don't feel that there's much point getting myself into debt and spending years working hard to retrain if I'm essentially going to end up in a role that is micromanaged in the same way as the one I'm in now, higher salary or not.

Having my loo breaks timed to the second and my life (whilst at work, which is a lot of it) tracked and controlled so much is really grinding me down and I want to know that if I save up to do a masters I am heading for a career that will be different to this. I don't mean I want an 'easy' job, or that I don't want to work hard. On the contrary, I want a job that challenges me, that really makes a difference and I'm prepared to work hard at it - I just need be able to go to the bloody loo whenever I need to, or make myself a coffee if I want, and to not have to email someone every time a meeting overruns by a few minutes. I am honestly sick of hearing the words 'it will affect your stats' and 'that will negatively impact your adherence'.

So I suppose the question is about micromanagement. Not just for law firms though as I'm not 100% decided on law just yet - I'm genuinely interested if this is just a call centre thing or whether this type of micromanagement exists in other jobs, specifically post graduate level jobs, because if it does then I won't waste money on re-training.

Thank you so much if you read through all of that, I hope it makes sense and I really appreciate any input

Thanks so much for all the comments and advice everyone, I am reading and taking note :)

Oh OP… I cannot help with jobs. (Except to suggest health, no micromanagement but hardly time to go to loo and lunch on the run/ between patients 😁)Your workplace sounds like a dystopian idea hell. There is absolutely no care for you as a person! Plan your exit as quickly as possible!

If you are intetested in law and you don't fancy the billable hours route how about being an in house lawyer?

I work in regulatory policy and we have a lot of in house legal advisors. I usually have a lawyer attached to a project and use them for reviews, legal advice and drafting legal text. How closely supevised it is will depend on the project and seniority of the lawyer.

But I won't be timing your loo breaks! 😀

@WeightoftheWorld replying to your question. It won't let me quote it. I work in financial services and there are a lot of people doing this type of role who have worked their way up. E.g. from customer facing roles. My advice would be to lean on your insurance experience to get a lower level role and then apply for risk/compliance roles in that organisation once you get there. We have quite a few people who have done this and also quite a few with law degrees who never qualified as a solicitor. Also look at doing an ICA certificate.

In law you do have to account for your time in that you have to hit your chargeable time targets and there are also billing targets. But if you don't do as much one day you can make up for it by doing it the next day etc. My work isn't flexible in that I can just start/finish whenever I want but I am quite junior, the more senior people have more flexibility. But I'm definitely not timed for lunch or loo breaks! And nobody is watching I'm logging on exactly on time or when I'm logging off. Nobody cares if I spend 10 minutes on my phone or staring into space for a bit.
Also rambling a bit on a mumsnet post in no way means you won't be able to be concise when talking legal terms 😆 it's completely different.
It is not an easy road to qualifying as a lawyer or equivalent though, a lot of competition and a lot of work :)

I am an academic librarian, that might be a career path to consider with an English degree. Library assistants only need to have GCSE level qualifications but the higher up / better paid jobs you do need to be qualified, I have an MSc in Information and Library Management. When I am not physically teaching students information literacy skills my time is very flexible as long as I do the work.

I would say whichever career path you go for there will be an in between however - starting in a new career you won't have the flexibility of someone in a senior management role who will also be paid more. But most jobs in my experience do not micro manage in the way call centres do and at least you will have the chance to progress.

https://www.faststream.gov.uk/ Look into the civil service grad scheme above. Wide range of jobs you can do depending on interests and very responsible from an early stage (ie minimal micromanagement).

Starting salary not amazing but within 3 years you should be on £45k plus.

Nobody cares if I spend 10 minutes on my phone or staring into space for a bit.

Earlier today I finished a call and started writing up my call notes, then glanced out of the window next to my desk and saw that a group of swans were making their way down the canal that's next to our building. I stopped for a moment to watch them because they looked so beautiful, (wishing I could take a photo on my phone but couldn't because its a no phones policy on the office floor) and after 30 seconds of looking at them I suddenly thought 'what are you doing? You're in wrap up time!'
Wrap up time is the time spent writing up notes after a call, before you make yourself available for the next call. Its timed and monitored like everything else and literally every second counts. Its honestly becoming soul destroying. Perhaps I'm being too excessive with it, getting anxious about spending 30 seconds watching the swans out the window, but the way everything is structured makes me feel constantly on edge! 😂

I overhead some other colleagues chatting in the lunch room the other day about how they can easily sink at least a bottle of wine every night. It was similar at all the other call centres I've worked in, in terms of it being the norm to drink every night. I'm actually trying to fight that atm but its hard in this sort of work. I am not happy at all. But all of these replies are making me feel so much less alone and more hopeful so thank you so much everyone! I will look into all of the advice and suggestions in detail 💛

You don’t need to necessarily do law but you do need to not work there any more. Feel stressed just reading about it.

HR? Writing content? Marketing / PR? Graduate training scheme?

I'm also in the unusual position of having worked in law and been a manager in a contact centre, so I know exactly what you're talking about. Honestly, I hated every second of it.

Law firms are completely different. As long as your clients are regularly updated, you are reasonably on top of your task list and you meet your time targets, then no one cares how you got there. In most firms you will need to record 6 or 7 "chargeable" hours a day. This is based on units of 6 minutes, which is the minimum amount. Sometimes you will have days where you need to work late to meet this and other days it's easy, depending on the work you're doing. No one will check where you've been for the last 10 minutes.

Having said that, your work will get checked a lot. At the beginning you may need to get every 2 line email checked, which can get frustrating. It eases over time as the firm learns to trust you, but it could be a long time before you have completely freedom. This is a good thing (although it doesn't always feel like it while it's happening)!

So, how exactly does the recording in six minute increments thing work, then? Like, with loo/coffee breaks?
And what if a particular task takes more than 6 minutes? Reading a contract for example?

Would it be like:

11:00 - 11:06: Reading contract x
11:06 - 11:12: Reading contract x
11:12 - 11:18: Reading contract x
11:18 - 11:24: Loo break
11:24 - 11:30: Reading contract x

And so on and so forth, repeating the 'Reading contract x' as many times as you were reading it, with the loo break inserted in the middle?

How do you even keep track of what you were doing for every single 6 minute section of the day? What if two things overlap in that same 6 mins - like something takes 4 minutes and something else takes 2? So within 6 minutes you did multiple tasks?

I'm being totally clueless and stupid about this I know, but just want to understand exactly how it works :)

@PinkStarAtNight I don't work in law, but in another field where I also have to record my time in 6 minute increments. Where I work (and I imagine most places with this system are similar) you don't submit a log of what you did all day in 6 minute chunks, but rather have 'cost code's' representative each project and record how much time you spent each day working on each project in a spreadsheet-like program. I personally have a sticky note where I write something like:
Project 1: 9.00-10.30, 2.00-5.00
Project 2: 10.30-12.00,
Training: 1.00-2.00,
to keep track throughout the day, and then at the end of the day I would submit into the spreadsheet:
Project 1: 4.5
Project 2: 1.5
Training: 1

My work are fairly chilled and things don't have to be exact to the minute, but some may be stricter. If things don't work out to 6 minute increments, I round it down and carry the minutes over to the next day, if that makes sense, so if I'd worked 10 minutes on something, I would write 0.1 and then add the remaining 4 mins on to the next day, but some people just round to the nearest 6 minutes.

Is your call centre work in the legal field? I have an ex-colleague who worked in a call centre giving legal advice, and hated it too.
It does sound horrible OP, not how anyone should be treated. I can work from home just by telling my manager "I have a delivery/appointment/MOT booked/whatever so I'll work from home today" and that's that. She would probably be mortified if I asked to go to the loo!

No it's not that strict at all. Basically we have case management software where a clock starts when you start a task. Then it takes as long as it takes and when you finish you stop the clock and it calculates how many 6 minute units the task took. So if a document takes 1 hour to review then the system will record 10 units. If you need a loo break/fancy a coffee/chat to a colleague, just pause the clock and restart it when you get back.

If something takes less than 6 minutes then the system logs 1 unit (6 mins). If you can churn out 10 letters in 10 minutes, that's considered 10 units (ie 1 hour's work).

There's a little bar on the top of my screen that tells me how many units I've recorded for the day.

What can make it tricky is that some things are not "chargeable" and so don't count towards your hours. E.g admin, training, networking. That's why lawyers can end up working long hours

How long ago were you at uni? Most uni careers services offer support to graduates for a period of time. Worth getting their advice

Don't do it.
It's too late for me, but you don't have to. Save yourself, run.

I'm in law but conveyancing. We don't time record as the client has a fixed fee at the beginning. I have always worked in small friendly high street firms. It's as far removed from what you describe as it could possibly be. I love it and works really well with family life.

Check out these courses as well - a couple of my co workers are doing this to qualify as solicitors and they are 95% funded by the government

https://lawapprenticeships.co.uk/

In a law firm (the one I work in anyway - I'm not a lawyer myself), as long as you're hitting your target hours and keeping your immediate team updated on any leave so cases are covered, they are pretty flexible. Even more so since lockdown, with hybrid work very much the norm for everyone.

That's a lot clearer thank you so much!