That two parents working doesn’t work

[Itsmyshadow]

We have 3 DCs aged 8, 4 and 1. DH works full time. I have recently returned from mat leave doing 4 days per week. On my day off I have DC4 and DC1 at home and a large part of that is taken up with swimming lessons.

I feel like I’m failing at everything to be honest. House is a state, am not on top of my work, kids in nursery and after school club for long hours, and don’t even get me started on the amount of after school sporting activities DC1 does which don’t really fit with going to work.

DH is a great dad, does his fair share with the kids, does 50% of the school / nursery runs, and most of DC1’s after school sporting stuff (whilst I have the younger two). He could pull his weight a bit more with the housework but gets off his bottom when I huff and puff / nag, and does all of the DIY and garden. Like most women I carry the mental load, doing all the school, nursery, medical admin etc.

I feel like I need to do a real half arsed job of my work on my wfh days to keep on top of the washing / house / kid admin / kid homework (saw a thread on here the other day about that), but workload / conscience won’t let me do that, and that doesn’t solve for the fact that DC1 has football at 5:30 on a Tuesday or hockey at 6pm on a Wednesday and if I finish at 5pm and I’m in the office, those timings don’t work.

We have a cleaner and a robot vacuum, but I still can’t keep on top of all the crap all around the house (paintings from nursery, party bag loot, paper admin that needs addressing, magazines etc), and feel like the kids get given toys / grow out of clothes much faster than I can get sort through the old ones. Result is a massive mess of a playroom that I keep getting half through sorting before the kids mess it up again and there’s nowhere for everything to go.

Don’t talk to me about TOMM or similar. I’m not lacking motivation or direction. I spend hours per week washing and putting away clothes, batch cooking, sorting through piles of stuff, firefighting cleaning tasks (usually when something mouldy is discovered or someone has spilt something somewhere), but no sooner is something done it’s a complete mess again.

So those of you who work a lot of hours and have young kids. How are you managing? Do you spend hours every evening cooking and cleaning (how do you find the energy if so?), and how to you manage the demands of kids after school activities / social lives?

My grandmothers had 4-5 kids each and husbands in regular jobs. They had spacious houses, beautiful gardens, lived well on one income and enjoyed their daily lives. They had time to cook good food, create beautiful gardens and socialise with friends, relatives and community.

Is that an option for an ordinary woman today? Apparently everything is so much better now...

Lots of women want children, and to be able to raise them. Not all of us do, of course. But for the many who do, are we 'freer' today? Is it freedom, to have no choice but to work, live stressful lives and pay others to look after our kids? Fine for those who want to work and use childcare – I'm genuinely not judging them. But I'm saying that the ordinary woman today doesn't get to choose.

Ah I just briefly looked at your threads and can see you are saying similar things.

Yes people are entitled to their own opinion, but the choice has defo been swept from under our feet sadly.

"Oh well done you for convincing someone to carry you around like a dead weight. Many parents don’t have the choice. Still more wealthy parents both work full time from home on flexible hours and still see their kids milestones without one parent needing to subsidise the other. Lets see if your DH can see the value you bring when all the kids are at school."

Cringe!!!!

No. Women can take up to 12 months of maternity leave.

Pregnancy/childbirth/breastfeeding doesn’t mean you have to spend years at home.

England also has poor breastfeeding rates so most women don’t breastfeed long term.

It’s a societal issue. Society is sexist and believes women should be the default parent.

I completely feel you, I have kids exactly the same age, just returned to work after MAT leave on 4 days a week. Some days I absolutely wing it, sometimes I think fuck I need to lay down and chill in the evening. If the house looks a tip whilst we’re both working so be it, it’ll get sorted when we’re both off work. Don’t be so hard on yourself, sounds like you’re absolutely smashing it! 💪🏼

This resonates with me so much! I am in a similar situation - also with 3 kids of similar ages - but I work 3 days and do think that helps slightly with the load.
I admit I do a half arsed job on my one wfh day as I also clean the house and sort outgrown clothes/do kid admin etc… but I reason with myself that if I was in the office that is the amount of time I would be in useless conversations/meetings.
It is such a struggle though and I really wish I could afford to not work while they are young so I can keep on top of things but we can’t afford it.
Could you reduce your hours to 3 days a week?

But working parents do raise their children.

Nursery care for our child when DH and I are at work but they don’t raise him. We do.

@hollybubs Lots of women want children, and to be able to raise them. Not all of us do, of course. But for the many who do, are we 'freer' today? Is it freedom, to have no choice but to work, live stressful lives and pay others to look after our kids? Fine for those who want to work and use childcare – I'm genuinely not judging them. But I'm saying that the ordinary woman today doesn't get to choose.

I find this muddled and slightly insulting.

What do you mean by the “ordinary” woman? Your post implies that women who want to work are unusual or exceptional which I don’t accept. For generations of women the expectation they would stop working when they had children was a huge burden which did a lot of damage to their lives. My mother’s life was essentially ruined by her inability to get back into work after having children. She was miserable as a SAHM.

Millions of very ordinary women work.

You still have a choice anyway. It’s perfectly possible to live on one salary in many areas of the UK.

Also finally do you think women who don’t work don’t raise their own children? I work FT, always have done. I’m absolutely certain beyond doubt that I have raised my child. I am by far the most important person in her life. What gives you the right to imply that because I have a job I haven’t raised her?

I absolutely raised my children,. And I cooked and socialised too. Gardening not so much because guess what? Some people don't like gardening.

Your rose tinted SAHM utopia never existed for the majority of women, by the way.

@Thepeopleversuswork totally agree with you. The mantra that "someone else raises your child" is really offensive.

Life is a series of choices. If you have 3 young children and refuse to take the financial hit of a nanny (obviously assuming this is possible) then yes, you're in for a tricky few years

"It’s a societal issue. Society is sexist and believes women should be the default parent."

Yes and, mindblowing though this may be, society is half women and many women WANT to be default parent. Why is this so hard for some women to grasp?

I never would have considered anything else!

I could only go back to work once littlest was 5 and full time school, plus their dad works from home, it wouldn't work otherwise.
I don't understand how both parents can have out of the house full time jobs, unless heavily reliant on other people.
Most of us don't have family to help etc

Not easy. I did 3 days when my DC were small as I figured that the most important thing was to keep my career going, and after childcare and tax I didn’t earn much. Can you switch down to 3 days?

We had nanny (was cheaper than nursery as for first DC we shared her with a friend who had DC same age and once we had 2 or 3 DC was cheaper than nursery and after school childcare. We switched to an au pair once youngest DC in reception.

We also had a cleaner a couple of times a week. The nanny did the kids laundry and cooked dinner for the kids.

But agree it’s not easy .

I don't find it hard to grasp at all. Women are socialised from birth to be the default parent because of how ingrained sexism is in society.

It's hardly surprising. The sexism is my main issue.

Added to that - with after school activities on the days I worked the nanny or au pair had to take them. It it was too far to walk (some of out nannies drove and some didn’t) I’d try to negotiate a rota with other parents that I’d bring back instead of taking… otherwise they couldn’t do the activity - it was pre covid so never worked from home. It just wouldn’t have worked without a nanny or
au pair.

Nannies were all Eastern Europeans who’s been au pairs and now wanted to do live out jobs. Not qualified in any way. Harder now after Brexit.

I think something has to give OP.
I agree with PP it could be swimming lessons. Can you go to a floats session at the local pool on a Saturday or Sunday? It's what I do...DD had plateaued in her swimming lessons and it seems a waste of time and money. When she's in the pool at floats session or on holiday with us she seems to learn more in an hour than a month's worth of 30-45 min lessons in a group.

I think you are working a lot of hours. I don't know (m)any mums who have more than 2 kids who work so many days. Hats off to you but it sounds so hard.
If there's any way to reduce your hours I would.
Not sure what other solution is. I only have 1 (lazy partner though!) and work 4 days with a pretty long commute and little grandparent help and still find it tough. It seems like I'm always behind on something whether it's work, housework, life admin or personal care.
I skimp on sleep in order to get everything thing done. Wouldn't recommend it.
Hope you are able to find a solution that works x

Both work full time here, I study on top and partner has his own business that runs across 7 days. I do about 99% of childcare, about 95% of housework and all the mental load. I make the most of lunchtimes to clean as I work from home. No extracurriculars Fri-Sun, swimming once a week and only 1 additional extra curricular to keep it manageable (1 child). The main thing is minimalism in the home. The less is more approach with toys, decor, clothes and stuff was the biggest game changer for me. A quick reset and tidy daily is far more manageable without all the junk

@SouthLondonMum22 -"I don't find it hard to grasp at all. Women are socialised from birth to be the default parent because of how ingrained sexism is in society."

With respect, I think it suits you to put the whole thing down to socialisation because (it sounds like?) you didn't feel an urge to be a SAHM.

It's fine to not be cut out to be. SAHM, but you have no right to reject what I, and other women, are clearly telling you.

If you feel you want to be there for your child, it can be the strongest, most innate instinct imaginable. I couldn't really describe it or think of anything to compare.

Societal influence is part of it - as with everything - but it's much, much, deeper than that. I am 50 years old. I know my own mind and what I felt. That's it. And I would fo the same again with all the benefit of retrospect.

Not entirely.
Most women have more than one child. Which means at least two lots of Mat leave so up to 2 years not at work.
On top of that, because of biology many women are the ones who want to stay off longer with their babies. Hormones, breast feeding, and arrangement due to being with the baby whilst recovering from birth.
To make things truly equal, a wand needs to be raised to allow men to carry, deliver and feed babies. Only then would any remote sort of equality be reached- otherwise it’s a farce to even pretend.

I don’t think 4 days per week working is the solution. It’s a great deal for work. Work pays you 4 days and you have to try to fit your previously 5 day per week job (which doesn’t change) into those 4 days. It’s for this reason that I’m not dropping down to 3 days as work would be even harder. But I don’t want DC1 in nursery 5 long days so will carry on with my 4 days for now.

This is one of your biggest problems.

Arrange a meeting with your line manager about your work load. Detail in writing what you did previously when you worked full-time and what percentage of your time each task took. Then discuss with your line manager what 20% of your work load you are going to drop now that you are only working 80% of full-time hours. You'll need to be very firm and be clear that the only thing up for discussion is which tasks you are dropping.

If you work full time you will be spending almost half the child’s waking time away from them (unless you work nights- but then when do you sleep?)
So it’s fair to say someone else is also responsible for raising them, whether you like it or not, it’s a fact.

My two are 9 and 10 and I'm still not back at work properly. I work evenings now. TBH one has ASD and full time working just wouldn't work. He needs me at school (in case he has to be picked up) , I simply have to go to school assemblies, sports days etc as he wouldn't cope if I didn't and he needs me for the transition at the end of the school day.

I'm quite happy. I don't personally see the point of having kids if you're literally going to pay someone else to do everything for them and you don't get to see them. I'd rather have less. Poor kids who get shoved into holiday clubs every day during school holidays.

The same could also be said by those who are determined it’s largely biology.

I’m also there for my child. I just happen to work too.

There’s a lot of bad stuff that can happen to a child in their formative years and holiday clubs are far from the worst!

That being said I do think there’s little acceptance on these threads that we don’t all want to do things the same way. I have nothing against other people making choices that suit them. For me, I don’t want my children in wraparound care or with a childminder before or after school so I work part time even though I’d actually prefer FT. That’s my choice and I accept I can’t have it every which way as I am sure the OP does!

The early years are incredibly tough whether you both work or not, unless one of you is earning £££££. We weren't. We were tired and broke - no family help with childcare either.

But impossible? No.