Adults are given more allowances than children

[Easterbunny23]

Caveat that I work in the lame duck sanctuary civil service where we seem to be expected to give limitless adjustments to whiney adults.

But I just saw a post from a teacher about rude 6-8 year olds, and while I understand how frustrating that must be for a teacher, I genuinely believe children are expected to put up and shut up more than adults.

I have worked with so many adults who:

• state they don’t like taking notes so never bring a pen to a meeting and expect more senior staff to follow up with emails about what work they need to do from the meeting
• get annoyed if you call them without warning when WFH
• cannot understand simple instructions, have to be video called, had screens shared for very basic tasks
• complain about not being given any meaningful work when they are off sick for 3 months at a time twice a year
• want all the adjustments going - cameras off in meetings when WFH, special ergonomic chairs, keypads etc

The list could go on! Not to mention just the general adjustments you make for colleagues depending on their preferred communications style (instant messages versus phone calls) and work style.

My point is that children in school are expected to just conform, to have the same needs as the rest of the 30 children, to sit super still and quietly on uncomfortable plastic chairs, to only go to the toilet when they’re allowed to…and any that don’t fall in line are fast seen as a problem!

You're kidding @Icannoteven. Wfh you are on the clock and should expect phone calls!
And I've never had 'admin' staff take notes at a meeting; if you can't write down what needs doing you are incompetent. That's like saying students shouldn't have to take their own notes at lectures and professors should provide a transcript!
Ergonomic chairs I grant you. But cameras off during meetings? What is the point? I want to be able to see the people, see that they are engaged, be able to ask them questions if I see they look confused or want to say something. Who are these people?
Children have little power and get bossed around - adults can't in the same way. However I fear wfh has stopped people from learning how 'work' works.

Yes, it is incredibly rude to call colleagues without any sort of heads up. Sorry that you weren’t aware of this very basic piece of work etiquette 🫤. It takes 2 mins to Teams someone and ask if they are free.

You are interrupting someone’s work and insisting that what you have to say takes precedence at that moment over any of their other priorities. It is the WFH of just walking up to someone’s desk and interrupting them. Or barging onto a meeting and interrupting.

This post is disturbing, OP.

-It's good working practice to put things in a paper trail email so everyone is clear.

-There's often a different shape to your day when you work from home and it's best to give someone a heads up. Same as if they were working in a sister office - not just a domestic environment.

-Sounds like you need to explain yourself better, or whomever is doing the instructing needs to.

-You support discrimination in the workplace re sickness?

-You support discrimination and cannot accept the existence of reasonable adjustments.

Surely each workplace should work out a suitable policy for calls. Depends on the sort of work being done.

Exactly. OP is extrapolating very specific things she's experienced where she works to ALL of the rest of us. It's juvenile.

So according to some people, every child should be able to choose whether they ‘take notes’, be allowed to go to the toilet whenever they want, and complain if the work they are given is not meaningful, according to their definition of meaningful? Yeah, right….

The meeting notes thing - people can’t always be expected to participate in a meeting AND take notes. That’s what admin staff are for!

We don't have admin staff. We are the admin and the do-er of the jobs. We have a rota for minute taking but that's just the minutes not the specific details needed. When you then have to follow up with someone who you spent time talking through an issue and they had specific actions they were supposed to take but didn't because they can't remember the details then that is an issue. Because the minutes will just say "discussion round return of data due for DFE by month end. Bob said there was an problem with the initial report but can resolve. Action: Bob to provide new data set by 28 July "
And then Bob says he can't remember what it is he was supposed to do to fix the problem and did anybody write down what he said

I'm not civil service but I am public sector and there are plenty of people who pull shit they would absolutely not get away with in private sector

It isn't OP is clearly exaggerating for effect!

No @mondaytosunday this is not a sign of incompetence. It is best practice, particularly in a work environment where meeting notes can be subject to an FOI request, or where the is a specific scheme of delegation that applies to decision making, that there is one central record of the meeting with agreed points. So you have one nominated note-taker who later distributes notes, actions or minutes to attendees. This would either be an admin person (who will be experienced in what needs to be noted and what doesn’t) or a senior person who has overview of any potential issues of legality that need to be born in mind when keeping an official record (in gov departments an official record can be any more that you have taken in the course of your work).

@HobnobsChoice your post demonstrates exactly why note takers need specific training! If there was one trained person responsible for note taking then you would have one agreed record of the meeting, which contained all the information necessary. This would be circulated and agreed on by the team after the meeting.

Tbh I’m not a fan of having teams do their own admin. This can often lead to diary management chaos and important people being bogged down with tasks that should have been delegated.

School is shit, that's why every normal child hates it to a certain extent.

My stbxh is one of them. I often think people have higher standards for children the for themselves/other adults. Stbxh gets angry at the kids for doing things he does himself like leaving the door open when hearings on or not putting their rubbish in the bin or not being polite. Even the 7 year old has noticed he's a giant hypocrite.

But cameras off during meetings? What is the point? I want to be able to see the people, see that they are engaged, be able to ask them questions if I see they look confused or want to say something. Who are these people?

I’m normally camera on but it does depend. If it’s an all-staff or all-dept meeting where I’m expected to be present but I know most of it won’t be relevant I’ll switch my camera off and get some work done while listening.

You should be able to communicate with people whether their camera is on or off.

There are good reasons why people turn their cameras of in meetings as well as simply not liking the host of the meeting.

OP I'm a bit suspicious but are you trying to dress this up as something else to in fact slate the civil service as seems to be the political thing to do these days?

I've been a teacher for 20 years. I've had acid thrown in my face, been called every swear word you can think of and shoved, squared up to and screamed at far more times than I could possibly count.

You are deluded to think adults are held to lower standards than children.

Kids have all the issues you describe but we train them with the skills to be resilient and independent. In my experience good managers do that too, whereas bad managers whine about their workers.

I agree with you in that children are given less allowances than adults despite not being as developed cognitively or emotionally.

But I wouldn't accept that behaviour from an adult in the workplace so it's not a great example imo.

I do have we train staff in behaviour management in education and I always say to talk to children before telling them off. I hate when a child gets told to "sit down" firmly when they are simply getting up to hand their jumper on their peg because they are hot!!!

No one would treat an adult the same way!

I've been teaching for 20 years.

These rules for children are necessary on a few basic principles:

1. There is a huge difference between adults WFH and 30 children having to sit in a classroom together. If you ever had to sit together in an extended meeting with 29 other people you'll know that certain social rules are there for a reason.
2. Adults have knowledge and foresight children don't have. In fact, teens are at some points as unable to foresee consequences of their actions, including social ones, as toddlers.
3. As in adult life, it's the pisstakers that spoil it for everyone.

I won't go into every rule mentioned here, but a few examples:

Detentions for not having a pen. They weren't a thing until an increasing number of children never brought equipment into school and then deliberately broke what we handed them. Literally, stomped on pens, took them apart and emptied ink all over the table and carpet, or snapped rulers for the sake of it. And a number of others loudly proclaimed that they didn't have writing equipment and if we didn't provide any they wouldn't do any work (for which teachers then got into trouble in book looks) and disrupted instead. Number 3 applies.

Not being allowed out of seats/ to go to the toilet. In a room of 30, imagine trying to concentrate while a steady stream of people make noise in front of you or to the side of you while getting up, walking past you, perhaps having a chat with their mate at the other end of the room while up. I have had kids walking to put a tiny bit of litter in the bin, then going back, then remembering they wanted to wash their hands (I have a sink in my room), then finding an empty bottle they also want to throw away. Multiply by 6, because it's never just one.
As for toilets, how many adults would be permitted to leave a meeting with the boss mid-conversation to walk off for 5-15mins (then having the boss catch them up), while there also being a chance of self-harming, vaping, taking drugs, stopping for a chat with their mates in other meetings or just going off to be on their phones? Again, it's never just one, either. If one goes to the toilet, expect 5-6 others to interrupt the talk to also go, ideally at the same time. Numbers 1 and 3 apply.

Refusing to do the work requested (whether it's because they didn't pay attention and didn't take notes or because they don't feel like it). Here's the thing. You do that at work, especially repeatedly, and you get fired. Being rude about it on top while challenged by your boss: here's your coat, off you go and please don't expect a reference. Number 2.

Having any adjustment you request: Again, when WFH the situation is different; you only annoy yourself. In a room of 30, imagine sitting closley next to someone clicking a fidget toy all day long, listening to music in their air pods (never calming, always the latest fad), wobbling on a wobble cushion, sitting with a weighted blanket wrapped around them, standing up to open windows while someone else needs it closed, wanting a gaming chair when you can then only squeeze onto a tiny stool with the space you have, etc. Numbers 1 and 3 apply.

And if your point is that class sizes are too large, I'm with you all the way. We need more rooms, more staff in rooms, a more individualised approach that you can only have with a much smaller staff:student ratio. But be prepared to pay for that, because the government can't even bring itself to pay the 6.5% more that was recommended to just retain a few more teachers than are leaving currently.

But while not many are prepared to pay better for better services, build for-purpose buildings, scrap Ofsted and punitive targets on teachers and students, scrap the curriculum as it stands, don't expect anything other than we have now. Because it's the only way to even halfway gain control of an unpleasant working environment.

@Icannoteven one of the people who did this is admin staff!!! Not participating in the meeting at all in terms of leading/speaking to items. And I don’t mean taking detailed minutes, more writing down action points for themselves from the meeting ie taking responsibility for work!

Another was a HEO grade but also not expected to participate, so why the refusal of taking notes? The answer is they thought it beneath their grade, which is ridiculous.

Re screen sharing - the person did not know how to attach a document to an email.

Absolutely! How is it different to nipping by someone’s desk in an office setting? I’m not saying it’s unreasonable to not answer the call - the person could be away from their desk for a short time for a number of acceptable reasons - but to actually complain that someone called them without proper warning.

My workplace is also like this and also public sector. It's a joke. Noone can do any work, it's unreasonable to expect someone to perform, in fact you may get accused of bullying if you ask anyone to do anything, some people can't use powerpoint (and yes it's part of their job and has been for a decade), some don't open any emails at all because they still can't work out how to open outlook without help. It's pretty dire