Adults are given more allowances than children

[Easterbunny23]

Caveat that I work in the lame duck sanctuary civil service where we seem to be expected to give limitless adjustments to whiney adults.

But I just saw a post from a teacher about rude 6-8 year olds, and while I understand how frustrating that must be for a teacher, I genuinely believe children are expected to put up and shut up more than adults.

I have worked with so many adults who:

• state they don’t like taking notes so never bring a pen to a meeting and expect more senior staff to follow up with emails about what work they need to do from the meeting
• get annoyed if you call them without warning when WFH
• cannot understand simple instructions, have to be video called, had screens shared for very basic tasks
• complain about not being given any meaningful work when they are off sick for 3 months at a time twice a year
• want all the adjustments going - cameras off in meetings when WFH, special ergonomic chairs, keypads etc

The list could go on! Not to mention just the general adjustments you make for colleagues depending on their preferred communications style (instant messages versus phone calls) and work style.

My point is that children in school are expected to just conform, to have the same needs as the rest of the 30 children, to sit super still and quietly on uncomfortable plastic chairs, to only go to the toilet when they’re allowed to…and any that don’t fall in line are fast seen as a problem!

My point is that children in school are expected to just conform, to have the same needs as the rest of the 30 children, to sit super still and quietly on uncomfortable plastic chairs, to only go to the toilet when they’re allowed to…and any that don’t fall in line are fast seen as a problem!

Tbh I don't recognise your description of how adults behave or how children are expected to behave in schools, and I've worked in a lot of schools. Teachers certainly wouldn't get away with expecting to be pandered to like your colleagues.

As for schools, yes there are some draconian ones, but I really don't think the majority are like that. On the contrary, what I've seen is indulging and turning a blind eye to all but the most extreme of bad behaviour, and schools bending over backwards to support difficult students.

It shouldn't be beyond a NT child to sit through a lesson without causing disruption, yes even on a plastic chair. Teachers are expected to make lessons engaging and interactive. It's not as if kids are expected to sit in rapt silence listening to a teacher for hours. There have been many other threads about the issue of going to the toilet during lessons. It's not an easy problem to solve tbh. Suffice to say, the reason adult employees don't need permission to go to the toilet is that they don't tend to vandalise property, bully other people or (hopefully) take drugs if allowed to go.

I honestly wonder if the people making these sweeping statements about draconian rules and children not having enough rights in schools have actually been in a school in the last 10 years. I'm pretty sure that if most parents could be a fly on the wall in the average secondary school, they would be urgently clamouring for more discipline, not less.

Exactly the point many are making - the school system is broken.

Who decided it was a good idea to have 30 kids in one class?! Or 2000 kids in one school??!

You’ve clearly not worked in the NHS then 🤣**

Your colleagues sound like absolute nightmares incidentally. None of this except the last one and maybe second to last would wash where I work.

These are very sensible rules. The teacher is in charge - legally in charge of the children. They need to obey because the teacher has knowledge that the children do not. For instance, yesterday I shouted to a child to stop immediately and he did. He was about to smash another child on the head with a heavy toy. Imagine that I had been all fluffy - "ooh, Nathan, is that nice behaviour?" I would have been spending the afternoon in A&E with a shit tonne of forms to fill in!

Perhaps when you visit these schools you could reflect on how much more pleasant your visit would be if a herd of Y6 children were allowed to stampede down the corridor and elbow you aside.

Come and work in my bit of the Civil Service- we don't tolerate people who behave like that in meetings!

As for children, my view is that what some people see as stifling restrictions, are actually boundaries. Young people hate them, and kick against them, but they are part of learning how to function within a society. Some schools probably do go too far, because human nature is like that.

Not my experience at all. My own school time was definitely a demoralising ,regimented, victorianesque experience but that was in the 80’s. DS is in a state primary. They are taught the curriculum but also enjoy a good deal of time in the dance studios, swimming pool, tending the allotment and the adventure playground. It’s a beautiful place and there’s a healthy balance with the energy that goes into the serious learning and the creativity and fun. They also hand out ice pops when the weathers hot and allow extra time in the pool. It’s an actual holiday park compared to my primary school. PTA probably squeeze 200 quid out of each year so not a mega wealthy area either.

Out of us * as in each household.

See Ken Robinson talk on changing education paradigms:

Yep. Sums it up perfectly

Quite. Adults would never get away with some of the stuff that goes on in schools.

My observation is that the older people get, the more rude, entitled and smug they become. Only they don't call it entitled. They call it something like having 'earned the right' .... no one has the right to be an arse

Maybe they just get sick of being patronised and watching the wheel being invented yet again. Maybe they don’t care what people think and won’t brown nose the boss anymore?

Maybe they actually know more stuff than a 30 year old, but no one listens to them due to the ageism that is so apparent in your post?

Just saying as 59 year old like…..

See this is the thing, everyone decries strict teachers and rules, but no one wants their kid to go to "that" school where violent children get hot chocolates and restorative conversations or where their kids come home without half their uniform or their phone because some bullies nicked/broke it all and the teachers did nothing. No one wants their kid to go to the school where children don't learn anything and finish school broken and scared of the world from seeing too much violence and other poor behaviour.

They want the results but they don't like the methods necessary to get them, which on a worldwide scale aren't particularly draconian or harsh. I worked in China for two years. That was draconian.

OP I don't understand why your colleagues get so much pandering, they should spend some time in retail/food service where there are Rules.

If this is indeed the standard of civil servants I don't understand why its so hard to get into the civil service.

Because if you went in and went what the fuck is going on here, all the pandering might stop immediately.

I went into a government department as a contractor and was actually prevented from completing the task I was given to do. Nobody wanted it completing because actually an end to the roadmap hadn’t been decided so the longer it dragged on the more time the people had to attend meetings to discuss nonevents that weren’t happening. On a 2 grand a day rate. They brought in a management consultancy company who made recommendations to use their management consultancy company. And concluded that their services would be required for a number of years as I say at two grand a day. The turkeys in the civil service are not about to start voting for Christmas.

But it has always been that way. My parents faced rules like that at school. So did I, so did my friends and siblings. We all seem to have done alright.
The fact is children and parents know the rules so don't complain if you get in trouble. Expecting children to be on time and have the right uniform or equipment is hardly a big ask.
Maybe the reason there are so many whiny adults in OPs workplace is because their parents constantly made excuses for them as a child.
School isn't a good place for many children. All children learn differently. Unfortunately one teacher can't teach the same thing 30 different ways so if you think the school is that awful remove them and home school as a PP did.

The opposite is also true though OP. I got sick of being called into school to be told that DS was pushed off a bench/had his trousers pulled down/ had his coat ripped and stuffed behind the sheds, had his glasses tossed into the nature pond and all the school did was shrug. They seemed to think it was normal behaviour among peers and he shouldn't be so upset. I felt like saying, OK if I pull your pants down in front of the class then? OK if I chuck your glasses in the pond? You won't be traumatised or furious or think I need restraining? What children are expected to put up with at school disgusts me.

I don't know either but it sounds like a complete gravy train. 🤣

With respect previous generations, didn’t do alright at all, they topped themselves, took Prozac like sweeties and lead miserable existences. That’s completely aside of the ones that self medicated with drink and drugs at all levels of society.

Totally agree that expectations of children are a bit odd. When we wouldn’t expect it of adults, why would we expect it of children. It also doesn’t prepare children for real life because real life is about negotiation, discussion and collaboration etc which would is often deemed ‘rude’ in a class setting.
I’ve always had really great feedback from my work, yet in school I was told I talked too much, tried to argue about school rules that were illogical and didn’t sit still! The very same personality traits are plus in work, where I’ve been praised for managing change, communicating well with people and thinking flexibly.

Yanbu. We should extend the same courtesy to children.

re the examples in your original post though, most of them are YOU being unreasonable. The meeting notes thing - people can’t always be expected to participate in a meeting AND take notes. That’s what admin staff are for! Employees should absolutely be expected to provide an ergonomic setup for their staff - this is basic health and safety. Calling people without warning is rude and disrespectful AF. WFH or not. The ‘people not understanding basic instructions without screen sharing’. - maybe revisit your communication style? Maybe people are just trying to get clarity on exactly what you want from them (are you the sort of person who demands tasks be completed in a particular way - are you very process driven?).

Workplaces come in all shapes and sizes and there's going to be at least some potential for an adult to figure out what sort suits them best.

Outside of rare specialist provision schools are pretty samey with classes of 30 as the only option. A lot of adults wouldn't do well in an open plan office with 30 colleagues.

Calling people without warning is rude and disrespectful AF

When did that happen? This is a work situation. Of course people should be available to take work-related calls! Requiring prior notice to do your job, ridiculous!