To think the law needs to change on 4x4s and Supersized SUVs in Cities.

[JustMint]

Unsure how, but today's news is just horrifying, these vehicles really need to be reduced in numbers in residential areas in my opinion. They are significantly heavier than smaller cars (I know that's stating the obvious) but who really needs a 4X4 in a city?

Rubbish. You can class the Defender in a similar class to the etron, XC90, Q7, X5 etc etc so are ultimately talking about the same thing and they could easily be interchangeable. These are bigger than most of the other cars on the road because not everyone has the finance to drive one, whether by PCP or outright. The fact is they're much more noticeable, hence why they dominate your perception. You barely notice the significantly greater numbers if Fiestas.

Bingo!

I think it depends on a lot of variables, which makes it difficult to accurately calculate but the gross vehicle weight will be over 3 tonnes, depending on fuel, passengers, cargo and optional extras etc.

People often don't appreciate (not you specifically) just how much a different engine, wheels, extras like a sunroof, hybrid or auto, electric seats etc. make to the final kerb weight. Just ticking boxes can change a car significantly.

But even 1 tonne is ridiculous. In physics terms the difference in impact force is huge and can never be underestimated. Yet I bet most SUV drivers never take this added responsibility on board.

When you read threads like this, with people literally denying reality, you get quite an insight into the American gun mentality.

"but, but, you can kill someone with a baseball bat, therefore I should be able to own a machine gun"

The thread isn't about people that genuinely need them. It's aboit the difference it would make to safety if the proportion of weapons grade vehicles was lower. It's really not that dissimilar to a dangerous dog discussion or a knife discussion.

If all of these things were less common, they would be involved in less incidents and that would improve outcomes as they are quantifiably more dangerous than perfectly reasonable alternatives.

Yes this exactly. Had never thought about the similarities with the gun debate but completely agree with you.

Definitely @OneTC

Yes!! Agree entirely. In the same way that smoking is now unfashionable and disapproved of by most.

Don’t know how we achieve this however. The car manufacturers aren’t going to push smaller cheaper cars rather than bigger ones.

From the Defender's line director:

"...an example of one of our toughest sign-off tests was to get the Defender to overcome hitting a 200mm high square-edged kerb at 40km/h. Now if you happen to be unlucky enough to be the test driver of that car, that's quite an extreme input. That specific test will generate 7 tonnes of load through the suspension, through the links and into the body structure." And the new Defender can cope.

Its not going to change though unfortunately its all down to cost and profit.

Manufacturers of vehicles could quite easily manufacture cars with a lot of components made out of carbon fibre, massively reducing the weight and making them massively more safe and reducing road deaths by millions.

But the simple fact is the cost and the lack of profit. The same goes for vehicle recalls these companies look at cost of paying out for deaths vs cost of fixing their known faults.

Although, if there was no market and idiots stopped buying the damned things, manufacturers would no longer make them. Or legislation prevented it.

Sadly we've entered a stage where manufacturers are almost dictating what we buy, which is the wrong way round.

I've been in these off roaders in an off road situation. The amount of extra engineering in the suspension and mass they carry is huge. It's incredible what they can deal with. To haul all that extra mass around for no real reason in a city situation is completely pointless.

I also strongly dispute that 4x4s are better in the snow. They are better in the snow IF you fit them with snow tyres or chains, or winter tyres.

But a crappy 2 wheel drive on winter tyres will out perform a 4x4 on normal tyres in the snow. That's why in Europe where there is a lot more snow no one is insisting everyone has to have 4x4s. Winter tyres are mandatory, and improve the performance of normal cars hugely. I've seen crappy Fiesta shitboxs fly up roads covered in snow and ice simply because they have the right tyres on.

So rather than getting a ridiculous 4x4 because "we need it for the snow" which hardly ever happens anyway in a lot of the country, just fit winter tyres instead. It's a lot cheaper and a lot better for the environment.

Most vehicle companies have had super mini concepts and options that have never proved popular. If people jumped on them they'd make them.

At the moment you can get that Citroen 2CV equivalent thing, goes 30mph, if you wanted to kill someone with it you'd probably need to drop it out of a window. Fiat also have one. They're closer to 4 wheel bikes than cars. Horrific to look at unfortunately

But a crappy 2 wheel drive on winter tyres will out perform a 4x4 on normal tyres in the snow. That's why in Europe where there is a lot more snow no one is insisting everyone has to have 4x4s. Winter tyres are mandatory, and improve the performance of normal cars hugely. I've seen crappy Fiesta shitboxs fly up roads covered in snow and ice simply because they have the right tyres on.

Short of an actual proper off road equipped vehicle the most go anywhere vehicle I've ever had was an old style 4x4 fiat panda. Someone I know did the Plymouth Dakkar rally in a 2W drive one

Are we absolving drivers here and solely blaming the car?? Maybe a few less drunk/drugged up/ drivers suffering from 'medical incidents' - (where the driver knows full well they have some condition) that may work a little better? Obviously I may be wrong about the cause but she has been arrested...

I feel the tide is turning now.

I drive a very small car and think it’s amazing, I can park it anywhere and petrol is cheap, we all fit in it too. I would never buy a huge tank even if I was rich. Hopefully more people are starting to see the benefits of smaller cars too now.

you do you girl. Brava! @JustMint

what research? speed awareness courses, tell you it’s not what vehicle will kill a child, it’s the speed they’re hit with.

this is about driver competence. IME the most dangerous place in the world is a school car park. Soooo many incompetent drivers impatient, entitled and in a rush.

perhaps a staged licensing system like motorcycles would be a better idea. Larger weight/higher speed cars should require a tip up driving test?

That's like the "guns don't kill, bad guys do" argument though. Clearly guns don't kill on their own but outcomes are a lot worse when bad guys have access to them. Likewise SUVs and bad drivers.

Literally all of it, plus basic physics. Smaller car at the same speed has less energy than the larger one. RTFT for more on importance of bonnet height, impact zone on the body etc.

speed awareness courses aren’t there to tell you what car to buy, they are there to get you to drive the car you have more carefully. The thing they can teach you is about speed, so they do that.

See spurious gun argument #101...

Glad someone has brought up this important issue.

Mega tax this type of vehicle and I'm sure they'd go out of fashion.

It's part of the tick list of being monied in the affluent parts of London.

We definitely need a 'small is beautiful' campaign for cars.

And maybe the idea of the 15-minute city / neighbourhood could render car-driving for short journeys a no-no.

Obviously I may be wrong about the cause but she has been arrested...

On suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving.

Standard procedure in these circumstances and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that she was a drunk/drugged up/ driver suffering from a medical incident.

It's important tp be accurate when using data to support an arguement and you are completely wrong with the Defender kerb weight. It's still around a tonne heavier than your car though.

I live near a schoolarea in London thats rammed with range rovers volvo and porsche suv every morning so that a rich mummy can drop off their offspring . Parking on double yellow blocking driveways not being able to see ark in a bay is a standard. Im a woman and a mother and theres nothing sexist in saying what I see every morning.

Yes all this, plus small 4x4s do exist, I had a fiat panda 4x4 in the 90s, it was an amazing car! The new Fiat panda cross is fab as is the Suzuki Ignis.

Most big SUVs arent even 4 wheel drive anyway, they are just very heavy front wheel drive in most cases.