To feel angry at celebrating the NHS

[TaylorSwifting]

The NHS is falling apart and today people are all full of glee at the NHS yippee 75 years today, it’s making me so angry!!!!!!!!!
My family member has been diagnosed with cancer, 2 months down the line and has had no treatment and terrible delays for tests…..still yet to see an oncologist. 2 months!!!!!!!!! Family member only has pain management because us family have begged and fought to get it. It is an utter disgrace and I had no idea how bad things were until this awful diagnosis in our own family.
We are not alone / it hasn’t been a mistake or being lost in the system by accident! Record high cancer patient delays - this is what so many people are facing. I am in utter disbelief!
I won’t be celebrating today.

Yep, my MIL was killed by NHS neglect in 2008 and father was killed by their neglect in 2010 - that was after the spending splurge by Blair/Brown and at a time when their fiddled statistics showed much lower waiting lists. My father had to wait 18 months for his cancer operation - because he missed the 20 week (?) target they basically ignored him and prioritised others who could "tick the box" and meet the target. There are lies, damn lies and statistics and the NHS played the system to make the statistics/targets etc looked good. If you were on the wrong side of a target, you were basically screwed and ignored as other patients whose targets could be met were given the priority.

Actually the post is about the NHS, which if you bother to research yourself is only found in the UK. I replied on point about the UK.
As you ask - yes I have more than bothered to research the healthcare systems of the places you mention! I have real life experience of this healthcare and it is better in every way to the nhs.

I am very sorry to hear this. Targets and funding models do seem to create unhelpful incentives sometimes. My Mum was a GP and regularly said same.

I’m not sure I expressed or indeed have am opinion on this, but I do think that such a system would cost someone like me more (higher rate taxpayer in FT employment). But I might be ok with that, if it were better and I had more choice.

Even after nearly 2 decades in UK, a developed coumtry, I still haven't got over the fact I can't just go to gynecologist but have to beg via GP. So I fly to my native country when needed and pay now....

100% this!

Yes, the GP as gatekeeper causes so many problems. Not seen that in any other system

I have a rare and serious neurological condition and my care has been exemplary throughout since I was diagnosed.

I am very grateful

I cant remember which poster was interested in the the Netherlands system but I have looked it up -

'This statistic shows the total healthcare expenditure per capita in the Netherlands from 1998 to 2021 (in euros). In 2021, the total healthcare expenditure per capita reached a value of approximately 7,116 euro. In the Netherlands, every resident or employee is obliged to take a basic health insurance to cover medical costs from, for example, visits to a general practitioner or the hospital.

The Dutch government decides on the cover provided by this package and health insurance companies are obliged to accept everyone who meets the requirements, regardless of age or state of health. An important characteristic of Dutch health insurance, though, is the so-called "principle of social solidarity": the overall costs of health care are paid by everybody. It is since 2008, for example, compulsory from the age of 18 to pay a total mandatory excess before the basic health insurance reimburses medical costs. In this way, everybody contributes to certain types of healthcare such as maternity care.

In 2021, the total mandatory excess reached a value of 385 euros. In 2005, the total health expenditure as share of GDP in the Netherlands reached a value of approximately 12 percent. Subsequently, this increased to approximately 14.5 percent in 2021. In 2021, the gross government expenses for primary care reached a value of approximately 6.6 billion
euros.'

So we spend less per capita in the UK.

We also have fewer GPs, hospital doctors, nurses or beds than in the Netherlands. (Should that be less or fewer?)

I have also just read that we have 16.1 CT and MRI scanners per million people.
Netherlands have 28.7.
France 33.6.
Germany 69.8.
We are at the bottom of a list of 19 countries.

I am not opposed to reform although I'm not convinced we will ever get more of what we want and simultaneously spend less.

No. I'm a trained skilled professional. I do my job well and work in ridiculous circumstances.

Calling us heros devalues us.

I'm wondering where this idea about "spending less" came from. I don't think that I have seen anyone in this thread argue that reform would allow us to spend less on the NHS. But I think a lot of people don't think that more money is all that is required.

We haven't kept pace with other countries spending over the last 10 years with a corresponding difference in service. You get what you pay for.

@AgathaSpencerGregson I have a similar view to you. I would probably pay even more towards healthcare under a social insurance system. But I would probably be willing to do that in a system with more choice and clarity, plus better outcomes.

I'm wondering where this idea about "spending less" came from. I don't think that I have seen anyone in this thread argue that reform would allow us to spend less on the NHS. But I think a lot of people don't think that more money is all that is required.

Yes, I don't think we should spend less, I just resent spending more when you know that on a personal level it will make bugger all difference to the service you receive.

As a previous poster said it will never work without reform. There is so much waste and inefficiency in the system - grifters gaming prescriptions. And, as a country we are skint. What magic money tree is Labour going to shake to “fix” it? We are never going back to the Blair days and even if it was slightly better we were still told every winter it was in crisis.

RafaistheKingofClay · Today 08:53
None of those things are the fault of the NHS though. Blame the government. Use the NHS’s birthday to write to tell your MP what an absolutely shit job this government have done at supporting the healthcare service and how that affects patient care.

And above all don’t ever vote Tory again. They do this to the NHS every time they get in. Without fail. It’s fixable but people have to want to fix it.

This!!

Well there is little point of thinking of a French/German/Dutch system without acknowledging that those Governments have invested far more than we have. To reach those levels - which I would love - will require more Government investment.
It will also require a comprehensive plan for social care.

Stats wise can't you in theory "shop around" to find things that fit your view?

Like you can look at spending as a % of GDP

It's not a like for like comparison though, is it. Those governments have invested less out of general taxation. The majority of funding comes from the private insurance premiums.

Wizzbangfizz

The magic money tree of properly taxing wealth (not income). We are a very rich nation but we have allowed greed and capitalism to run rampant. Whilst I wouldn’t consider myself a socialist, the status quo is set up to make the rich richer and keep the ‘poor man at his gate’. Trickle down economics doesn’t work. The privatisation of public amenities and the necessary infrastructures, hasn’t worked.

We need to tackle the socio-economic causes of poor health, whilst investing in health provision in a meaningful way. We need to tackle the massive inequality in the UK.

No you weren’t. Because it wasn’t.

This is from the midpoint of the Blair government.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/mar/23/medicineandhealth.politics

Yes, definitely. But I had read this thread from Nigel Edwards and figured he understood it better than I did! -

"Health spend as a proportion of GDP does not actually tell us what was spent - @KateAndrs I think the figure to use is PPP adjusted spend per capita, %GDP is used for different analysis.

In 2022 the UK spent $5493 per capita, the OECD $5009 - this includes some lower income members. France $6517, Denmark $6279, Germany $8010 NZ 6061 Spain $4461 Australia $6596 Finland $5676 Belgium $6600

twitter.com/nedwards_1/status/1676217115970289665?s=46&t=Uw4lJNwxFZFnX0Xs3doHYg

I would happily appauld the NHS staff.

I will not appauld the post code lottery shit show that is the NHS at this point. It's failing everyone and I will not congratulate the government on it's current 'NHS'.

It's not a like for like comparison though, is it. Those governments have invested less out of general taxation. The majority of funding comes from the private insurance premiums.

Exactly. Just a quick google shows me that

In 2023, the average premium of health insurance (zorgpremie) is €1,661.40 per year (or €138,45 per month).

And you can choose to buy more insurance on top of that to cover dentists, opticians etc. How many people in the UK are going to be willing to pay that on top of taxes? (I would if we got the same level of healthcare.)