To ask ds17 to consider therapy worh my now ex?

[Outoftheblues]

Totally outing situation but I am prepared for honest responses. Sorry if it’s long but I want to try and give full details.
this week my partner of 15 years was physical with my ds17.
partner and ds initially had a great relationship, ds’s biological father has never been involved and partner has raised him since he was very young. We have a further ds10 together. Throughout ds17’s teen years their relationship became more strained. About 90% of the time they got along fine but they would occasionally argue and disagree. This would lead to raised voices and arguments but nothing serious. This weekend me and ds were talking and it became a little heated, nothing huge but ds raised his voice when he was unhappy with something I said, if he had given me time to finish he would have realised I didn’t mean anything and it was really a misunderstanding. Partner was in the living room, heard his raised voice and shouted through that he was fed up of him shouting and being rude and to piss off out the house (ds17 was in the porch as we were about to go out). Ds responded by telling partner to fuck off so partner charged from the living room and grabbed hold of ds. It all happened so fast that I can’t say exactly what he was trying to do, could have been to hit him, Grab him and physically throw him out the house or something else. Ds grabbed him back and they scuffled for a second or two before they both listened to me to stop and backed away from each other.
I immediately told partner to pack his stuff and leave, he didn’t argue or try to apologise for anything, took some things and has gone to his parents house.
it’s been 2 days now, my ds10 is heartbroken, so am I, ds17 has said he is fine but wants nothing further to do with him. Apart from speaking about ds10 and arrangements for him me and partner haven’t had contact. Partner has not contacted or spoken to ds17 at all.
I have today wondered whether this can be repaired. I want to say my loyalties lie with ds17, and in most ways they do but I am now also thinking of me and ds10 and our lives too. Which brings me to my question: would it be completely unreasonable of me to speak to ds17 and ask him whether there is a way forward from this. I am not thinking we forget about it and move partner back in but maybe therapy could be an option. For ds17 it could maybe help him figure out why he jumps to shouting and swearing at people so quickly and different ways to tackle that. Partner could look at why he reacted the way he did and how to do things differently. I’m sure partner if here to speak for himself would maybe say I enable ds by pandering to him and not doing anything about his behaviour when it happens and need to change how I react.
I keep thinking that ds is approaching adulthood, he will soon be going to uni or full time work and probably moving to a place of his own and although it feels completely selfish of me I think that when he does that I will then be single when we could try and work things out.
their relationship will probably never be the same but maybe it could be something rather than nothing
any advice, I am happy to be told I shouldn’t even consider it but please try to think what you would do if apart from this one incident, life had been good the majority of the time

thanks again if you got through that, I know it was very long

I spoke to partner yesterday, he says he deeply regrets what he did, he saw red after the numerous occasions of ds17 being rude and shouting. He says he didn’t intend to physically hurt him more scare him by rushing towards him and that it was ds who grabbed him although that would be a completely normal response when someone is charging towards you.
ds17 once home again later has said no he can’t see a way forward, he understands ds10 will always have a relationship with him and even that I might chose to see him but he will never see any future where he will even want to be near him.
to the poster who asked why the change is ds17’s behaviour since the incident, this is how it goes. Whether partner is here or not when ds really loses control there is always a very calm period afterwards and we sink back into a way of life, I tell myself he understands why he can’t behave that way and then it happens again at some point in the future.
I am lost with what I do, I feel like I am having to choose between my two children right now. I know ds17 is younger so it’s easier to say he should know better and forgive him whereas partner as an adult should never have done that but I can see why he lost his temper. I do think there is a real chance ds will flare up and that switch will flip again. I can’t understand why though, we don’t ask a lot of him. As long as he tidied up after himself as he goes, is quiet when people have gone to bed and does the recycling and keeps his room clean we are happy.
I don’t know where I went wrong in all of this

I don't understand all the excuses here justifying why your partner was physical with your son. Would you be saying the same if he had been physical with OP or the 10 year old? There is no excuse and your son has made his feelings clear.

You can of course do what you think is best but it may irreparably damage your relationship with your son. I know he is nearly an adult but are you prepared that he may never come back to the house again if your partner is there?

When I reported one incident of similar violence to my therapist she told me she couldn't continue with the both of us as it isn't appropriate. Even if your son is willing to engage you may find the same.

I don't understand all the excuses here justifying why your partner was physical with your son. Would you be saying the same if he had been physical with OP or the 10 year old? There is no excuse and your son has made his feelings clear.

Being honest I do think there is a big difference between a man fighting with someone smaller and more vulnerable than them, and two similarly sized adult men scrapping. Yes DS is still 17 which is why it's not great, but it is on the cusp.

I wouldn’t say I am making excuses, I am trying to get my head around how my life has crumbled apart and I think anyone would do the same.
I can genuinely say there has never been any hint of anything like this in our lives before. Ds hasn’t been brought up in an unstable environment, there hasn’t been any verbal abuse or any reason why he as an older teen has at times been so difficult to engage with. We were a regular happy family that got along.
I think in my heart I know their relationship is over, I can’t see a way the two of them could ever repair even just to be civil but I also can struggle to come to terms with that and look for solutions.
I think now my life will truly never be the same and either youngest son and my relationship never recovers, or I lose my relationship with my oldest son. I can’t believe I have come to this

Honestly it still comes across that ds17 rules the roost and you completely.

He doesn't get to dictate what happens. You are both his parents, you decide how you will move forward after this and what behaviour you expect to not have to deal with from a 17yr old. If he was under 16 I'd have a bit more sympathy as he would be a child, but at 17 you know how to behave, you know not to shout and swear at your mum.

When is he 18? And is it both of your houses?

He was 17 in april, the house is in my name only. We live in a council house which I had before I met partner so when he moved in everything was in my name and it just stayed that way
part of me agrees with what your saying but I also know if I go that route I lose my son. I think if I give it time he may at some point allow a civil relationship but nothing more. I don’t think he will ever accept how bad his behaviour has been. Not that it cancels out partners behaviour but all he can see is how partner was so so wrong and not what got him to that point. Either way I think I lose someone here and I don’t think it’s as simple as partner or ds17 because there is also ds10 in the mix. I can’t see him ever now having a relationship with his brother, ds17 has never been great with him either. I think he is extremely resentful that partner is his biological father. I can’t change that, I can’t turn back the clock but if I had to say what caused it I would say that. I wouldn’t even before this have trusted ds17 in the house to watch his brother if I needed to go to the shop for example, he isn’t violent or even mean to him but they just don’t have a relationship.
So much is wrong and I think I have probably been in denial about it for so long that it’s gone past the point of being fixable, I take responsibility for that even if I don’t know what I could have done differently

Really unhelpful.
OP I wonder if there is any way you can discuss this with someone dispassionate outside the situation? There are helpful people on here but unfortunately also some less kind ones. Could relate or similar organisation be helpful? I mean for you, not for DP or DS at this point.
at the end of the day you have set a completely correct boundary around the use of violence in the home. It’s tough and lonely doing these things on your own and some support could be useful for you.

It seems odd that he doesn't have a relationship with his brother given he was only 7 when he was born and they lived together full time. Seems like there are more issues at play here.

What are your eldest's plans for next year? Is he going to uni?

The DP told your son to piss off. The son mirrored this (as children do with their parents- this is learned behaviour) and then your DP went to attack your son.
Your DP started it and escalated it.
I'd kick out any man who told my son to piss off tbh, never mind the rest.

I have family support and have my mum to speak to, she has listened and followed my lead but has said when I discussed with her yesterday about seeing if it was fixable that she thought it was and that it was rash to make partner leave. She obviously isn’t around all the time so doesn’t see how we are when all together at home but she also thinks this comes from ds17’s resentment about not being partners biological son
ds is not 100% sure on his plans yet, he is doing a levels and he is leaning towards university. He has changed his mind a lot recently as doesn’t know for certain what he wants to do career wise. He spends a lot of time in the gym and thought something fitness related would be good, he has recently been saying he wants to join the army but would probably do uni first anyway. He has a careers guide meeting through his college in a couple of weeks to speak about it and see if they can give him more information on different options.
@Valour I think that too, but then I think of ds’s attitude and behaviour and can see how that could cause someone to snap. I’ve lost my temper with him before. I swore at ds once, it would never lead to violence for me but he is very hard to deal with when he flips. I know I sound like I am trying to justify it but it is so random and over nothing so many times, this time it was because I asked if he was sure he had used a trusted website to order something. Last time it was because it was 10:30 at night, me and ds10 were in bed asleep and he came home slamming doors and wanting a shower as had opted for a late bike ride and was muddy. When I told him he had woke us both up and I was up for work in 5 hours so to go downstairs, rinse off at the sink and have a shower the next morning he screamed and swore at me. As I wrote it all out I don’t know how I let it get to this point but each of these instances is normally months apart and i put it down to teenage hormones and think he will come out the other side, teens are difficult and in a year or so I expect he will look back and realise how selfish he was and regret he did it but it’s now all blown up and we are the point we are. So whilst I am so angry at partner for not control his temper and waking away I am also angry at ds for how he behaves, angry at myself for not knowing how to deal with it earlier and heartbroken that a 10 year old is caught up in all this and feels his life has fallen apart

Glad youve got support. I think though you were right to tell DP to leave. You had to draw that line and show very clearly what can’t be tolerated.

Don't be too harsh on yourself OP. You need to work out what feels like the decision for you and both of your dc and when you do you will feel a bit better.

as much as 17 is almost an adult- he is still young and immature. He shouted F-off (not acceptable) but is nowunderstandably shaken by a fully grown adult in a position of trust come charging through from another room with an intent to scare him. And it resulted in a physical altercation.

its Interesting your son is better after a meltdown, and now his step father has left doesn’t do this at school. It’s possible that he’s extremely manipulative, this behaviour is very similar to the way abusive partners behave

OP
So sorry about this.
It's so sad that your DS17 doesn't have a relationship with your DS10.
Ironically to be honest I think that's going to be probably damaging to your DS10, growing up in a house with someone hostile to him.

He shouted fuck off after ops dp told him to piss off though if you are going to swear at your 17 year old you shouldn't be surprised if they swear back

Because he is a teenager who has hormone surges and will not be fully mature until 25. Because his brain is undergoing rapid changes.

Seriously, I sometimes think they are incapable of hearing/processing heard spoken language properly and will fly off the handle having jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Teenagers are stroppy and obnoxious sometimes due to changes in their brain. Parents job is to guide them through it without being violent. Yes it is bloody hard. But violence is not acceptable.

Your partner assaulted him. He's crossed a line. He shouldn't come back.

I understand you taking time to think it all through as it is a big shock and big adjustment to make.