What do you think London will be like in 10 years?

[kundalini88]

London feels like it has changed so much over the last 3 years, let alone the last 10+. Although there are a lot of great things about London, I have seen a lot of decline, some of it quite rapid- it's harder to get a GP, dentist, it's much more crowded, it's a lot more dirty and polluted, everything is much more expensive than even a few years ago, transport is less reliable, dirty and expensive, there seems to be a lot more crime and antisocial behaviour, a lot of the nice things about London have disappeared such as cheap music venues, quirky shops that had been in existence for years. Everything seems to be about making money rather than just existing for people to enjoy. I feel like it is a great place to live if you are rich and comfortable or have secure housing, but otherwise it's just a constant struggle. I'm just wondering what the next 10 years will bring? Do people think it will get better (possibly under a Labour Government) or decline more?

In answer to the question “have you ever been to a real shithole” I can only answer that I grew up in Birkenhead. And I still wouldn’t live in London now if you paid me.

It often happens on London threads. Probably for the reason you say in last line.

A lot of people just don't like cities, or even towns. I know I don't, I much prefer living in the countryside. So London is the biggest, baddest city in the UK, and therefore focuses people's dislike of cities. I have to go to London occasionally for work and it's ok, the public transport and Boris bikes are great but the main problem is getting back home - I'm depressingly familiar with the departure board at Waterloo showing 'Cancelled' all over it.

It's just silly to refer to an enormous city of 9 million people as a shithole. Sure parts of London are but other parts are absolutely glorious, and most of the city is somewhere in between.

@BCCoach

A lot of people just don't like cities, or even towns. I know I don't, I much prefer living in the countryside. So London is the biggest, baddest city in the UK, and therefore focuses people's dislike of cities.

That's completely fair. But it's quite a jump from "I don't like living in cities" to "This place is a shithole". I wouldn't live in a rural market town for a billion pound annual salary but I would never describe it as a "shithole".

What I don't understand is why it's always London. There are half a dozen big cities in the UK with populations comfortably over a million. Most much poorer, more deprived, dirtier and more dangerous than London. You rarely get threads on here saying "Birmingham/Bristol/Leeds is a shithole".

It's childish, intellectually weak and pathetic. Most of people who call London a "shithole" can count on one hand the number of times they've been.

If I pitched up in Runcorn on a business trip (to take a totally random example) and then went home, went on the internet and said it was a "shithole" because of a snapshot of the rail station or a busy shopping arcade people would rightly tell me not to be a dick about it. But because its London people seem to feel they can do it with impunity.

No quarrel there about Runcorn mate

@AgathaSpencerGregson

I've never been to Runcorn. But if I had I just wouldn't describe it as a "shithole".

Oh god

It's also the cognitive dissonance of people saying "everyone in London is super rich and posh and doesn't know about real life" while simultaneously also that London is full of criminal street gangs and "no go areas".

Suspect most rich Londoners have a much better awareness of the wealth gap and poverty because London is a patchwork where even a mega expensive area like Chelsea also has a big council estate. State primaries even in wealthy areas will have a sizeable share of kids on free school meals, alongside very middle class children.
To take another city for comparison - Bristol is much more divided into very clear rich and poor areas, there is no big council estate in Clifton or Redlands.

Plus even rich Londoners take public transport so aren't always cocooned in their own luxury metal boxes as they would be in small towns - you see almost the full spectrum of society on public transport.

This is so true. When I go back to wales, my school friends who stayed there happily tell me how much they hate london (having been up to stay in a central london premier inn a handful of times). but I can never say anything against wales, and nor would I as it’s rude! But feels like slagging off london is fair game.
in answer to the question, I have a business and live in zone 3 and it’s a thriving community with loads of investment, good restaurants, amazing green space and forest nearby. Whenever I go into town, which takes 20 mins on the tube, it feels busy again. I regularly go to the theatre, to museums, restaurants, parties, and I don’t feel like london is dying. Quite the opposite. Property is a massive problem it is true, and personally I’d love to see rent control here to stop people profiteering from it. Specialist nhs healthcare is also amazing and if my mum had been here instead of wales, she wouldn’t have died last year in the awful way she did.
so the busyness and pollution is the price I pay for a thriving multicultural city.

@Thepeopleversuswork I attempted similar in my post further up the thread about my most recent hometown, but it's (unsurprisingly) been ignored.

It's the same on every one of these threads - nobody ever wants to step up and explain themselves or give examples, even when somebody else describes a real and existing shithole, and what it is like to live in one.

I suspect your point about diversity is bang on, though. We're happy knowing that we're just not that fascinating or important here (or at least no more so than the person standing next to us), but some people seem to find that hard to deal with.

It’s definitely true about people outside of London who think their office job is middle class as they can buy a home but in London, when you look at the sheer jump in house prices, have lots of people renting or buying in zone 3 ( not London as someone from Manchester said to me). It’s a strange jump for some people to realise they are not the hot shot they thought they were in such a large pool when, if you grew up here, you realise it’s not so black or white.

@SocksAndTheCity

It's the same on every one of these threads - nobody ever wants to step up and explain themselves or give examples, even when somebody else describes a real and existing shithole, and what it is like to live in one.

No, because there is no evidence for London being a "shithole". It's a figment of the feverish imagination of a few people who find it vaguely threatening that other people like living there. Unless you are unlucky enough to be in serious financial straits, in which case you are no worse off than anyone anywhere else in the country. For all its expense and strife, I'd much rather be looking for a job in London than somewhere rural where there's precious little work and what work there is is hard to get to.

And my pet hate is non Londoners banging on about knife crime etc. What pisses me off is that its invariably people from the shires clutching their pearls about it as if they are going to get knifed on the train on a day trip to London (newsflash -- you're not). When in fact the people who really do have to worry about knife crime are people who are stuck with it because it's part of the communities they live in and often can't afford to move out of. And often people like this find it incredibly hard to get away from.

And for the record there is plenty of knife crime in equivalent pockets of Manchester, Liverpool etc. They're just smaller.

it generally is a synonym for 'we don't like people who look poor or where there are too many non-white people'

There's nuance between people who are born & raised here & newcomers though. I have friends who grew up in Thornton Heath & hate it who moved further out for a house that didn't cost much more eg Caterham. They would say they much prefer it. They are not white... Same for friends who grew up in Hackney in the 80s. I know a fair few mothers who didn't want to raise their black sons in certain areas.

Suspect most rich Londoners have a much better awareness of the wealth gap and poverty because London is a patchwork where even a mega expensive area like Chelsea also has a big council estate.

Would disagree with this!

@radiatorpipe

I have friends who grew up in Thornton Heath & hate it who moved further out for a house that didn't cost much more eg Caterham. They would say they much prefer it. They are not white... Same for friends who grew up in Hackney in the 80s. I know a fair few mothers who didn't want to raise their black sons in certain areas.

That's quite a specific thing though and I agree that's understandable. (Although, again, not specific to London. This happens in all big UK cities).

I was thinking more of the people who've been to London two or three times in their lives, found it overwhelming and stressful negotiating the transport network and harrumphed about it all the way home and then post about how "dirty" it is.

London isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. I’ve lived here for 30 years and love it. I like the chaos and diversity and that even now I don’t know it all. Public transport is far better than we realise.

My biggest concern is a loss of diversity due to people bring priced out. We have lived in Zone 3 for over 10 years (we were more central before) and our area is now unaffordable for most average earners. I think London will lose something if the economic segregation continues at this level.

People would say to me, on hearing that I live in London "ooh I couldn't live in London".
What they don't understand is that London is a collection of towns and boroughs. I live in my area, go out, shop, socialise just like they do.
I think they think we all live on Oxford Street.

Couldn't agree more, @Thepeopleversuswork . There's a world of difference between saying you prefer to live somewhere else and coming unprompted onto a thread about London to opine that it's a shithole, and it always reflects on the person who says it.

I wonder whether it's partly seen as ok because it's seen on some level as "punching up"- clearly lots of people do want to live in London which is why it's so expensive and that somehow licenses a person who doesn't to express themselves in such an obnoxious way? A sort of chippiness? I think we can all be a bit like this sometimes about things we don't value that other people value highly- some sort of need to make clear that it's not that we can't afford these things that other people obviously value perhaps, which must come from a place of insecurity.

@Thepeopleversuswork you are 100% accurate. I live in a Midlands ex mining town with poor employment prospects, very little to do for kids and teens, a dying town centre full of vape shops and shockingly bad public transport.

So many people here think London is a shithole that I can only assume they've never been! Yes it has its issues, but no more than most other major cities. I head into London for work fairly frequently and in recent years have started to jump on the train with DS so he can experience things outside of his norm and he loves London at the moment. I'm pushing 50 and find it as interesting and vibrant I ever did - its changed of course but not all change is bad.

It's the UK decline , not just London . We live fairly rural . 2 buses an hour and often they don't turn up . No dentist in nearest town , we have a 60 mile round trip to our appointments .
Our local bin men have been on strike for 3 months so only general waste being collected once every 2 weeks . No paper/ cardboard / plastic / glass / cans for 3 months .

I live in zone 2 in a nice house on a quiet street. I’m a professional but my earnings aren’t that high as I work in the public sector. I can afford to live here as I’m in social housing. My street is a mix of owned places, private rentals and my HA owns 3 or 4 houses. It’s possible some of the others are owned by other HA’s or the council. I wouldn’t know. And nor would anyone else. That’s the point.

Many of us on more middle incomes live in London getting on with our lives. It’s not all either high earners or the poverty stricken.

There are many SH homes in London that you wouldn’t know are SH, it’s not only estates. Someone I know got a beautiful flat from the council in a big Georgian house that had been converted. Also zone 2.

Where I live is not crime ridden. Of course there is crime, but nothing like gang issues or knife wielding maniacs! It’s just a “normal” place to live. I’ve been here nearly 20 years now and the things I would say have changed in my area, is more flats being built and more coffee shops. But nothing major has changed.

God, I love London. I moved here from fairly rural Somerset (if you want to talk about shitholes) forty years ago and I never want to leave. I think the city has improved vastly since I came. It's cleaner, the transport is better..there was no Oyster Card or even Travelcards back then. Things are changing all the time but that's just life isn't it? Have you seen what they've done to the centre of Bath lately?
One of the things I love is that I don't have to drive anywhere. Public transport is so good and free for the over 60s.
I'm a music nut and everyone comes here. Some venues have closed but there are still hundreds and new ones opening all the time.

there was no Oyster Card or even Travelcards back then

There were travel cards. It used to be the first thing I bought each week - then I had the freedom of the city. I agree public transport is so much better now, except for not being able to wiz along standing on the open bit of the Routemaster at night.

@EmpressSoleil

can I ask how you got such housing? Were you waiting a very long time/transferred/grewup in the borough?

thank you