Titanic 1997. Aibu to not realise how young Ruth was and that I don’t think Cal was that bad?

[phatt]

So it’s been a few years since I watched Titanic and always assumed that Ruth was in her 60s but she’s actually late 30s/early 40s. So she could have also got re-married (less likely but still a possibility.)

I know I’ll get flamed for this but I don’t think Cal was an outright villain. He did attempt to connect with Rose and love her but for his fiancé to be socialising with people in third class (when social standing was huge) and to blatantly cheat on him very openly then you can see why he’d be pissed off.

Also I’m judging him by Edwardian standards and not modern day. Obviously he did acts that made him a “bad” person as well.

Me too. Jack just wouldn't be my type. And I wouldn't be his as he preferred pretty 17 year old girls (and still does.)

@Livingtothefull just looked Murdoch up on Wikipedia:

Death
Edit
Several eyewitnesses, including Third Class Passenger Eugene Daly and First Class passenger George Rheims, claimed to have seen one of the ship's officers shoot one or two men during a rush for a lifeboat, then shoot himself.[17] It became widely rumoured that Murdoch was the officer.[17]

In a letter to Murdoch's widow, Second Officer Lightoller denied the rumours, writing that he saw Murdoch working to free Collapsible A when he was swept into the sea by the wave washing over the boat deck.[18] However, Lightoller's testimony at the U.S inquiry suggests that he was not in a position to witness Murdoch being swept into the sea. It is also possible that Lightoller may have wanted to conceal the suicide, if it occurred, from Murdoch's widow. Later in life, and according to a family friend, Lightoller reportedly admitted that someone did die by suicide in the sinking. Additionally, James O. McGiffin, son of Captain James McGiffin (a close personal friend of Murdoch), said that Lightoller had told his father that Murdoch had shot a man.[18]

The allegations of an officer's suicide was portrayed in the 1996 miniseries Titanic and the 1997 film Titanic, both portraying Murdoch as the suicide victim.[17] When Murdoch's nephew Scott saw the film, he objected to the portrayal as damaging to Murdoch's heroic reputation,[19] and film executives later flew to Murdoch's hometown to apologize.[20] The film's director, James Cameron, said that the depiction was not meant to be negative, and added, "I'm not sure you'd find that same sense of responsibility and total devotion to duty today. This guy had half of his lifeboats launched before his counterpart on the port side had even launched one. That says something about character and heroism."[21][22]

Author Tim Maltin (Q119846417) writes that, although the evidence is circumstantial, "it does seem that an officer did shoot himself and Murdoch seems the most likely candidate. As Titanic experts Bill Wormstedt and Tad Fitch point out...Murdoch was the man directly in charge of the ship in the hours leading up to the collision with the iceberg and he was therefore responsible for the ship and all its passengers during that time. His career at sea was effectively over, even if he survived the disaster"

Not exactly conclusive but certainly possible then.

It's not a door. It is a panel. It's based on a real one. Jack tries to climb on and it tips. So boring to say they would both fit on.

@Batfunk that is really interesting. From what I have understood the last hours of the Titanic were chaotic and that is why there are so many uncorroborated stories. It is of course possible that it was indeed Murdoch but we will never know for sure. The problem with the depiction in the movie is that presents the event as factual when there is conflicting evidence.

It is possible that a crew member committed suicide and it might have been Murdoch. If so it might have been done because the individual thought their career was over; or just to avoid an horrific death.

I understand that the enquiry was quite punitive in nature and focused on apportioning blame to individuals. Some survivors (eg Bruce Ismay) as well as the captain of the Californian, never recovered from the trashing of their reputations.

Whereas in reality, the question of who was to blame was extremely complex. Obviously a lot is discussed about the lifeboats which despite being inadequate, actually exceeded the regulations at the time.

But I find it unbelievable that there were no binoculars available for the men in the crow's nest. That alone says so much about the lax safety standards prevalent at the time (not just on the Titanic). If they had had them they might have seen the iceberg soon enough.

A huge luxury liner, over 2k people on board - and no binoculars? Apparently there was a pair (just one!) on board but they were locked away and the key had been lost. Does anyone know why? Were they expensive technology which they didn't want to entrust to the crew?

To summarise, it just makes me very sad that individuals may have been held accountable for what happened, when the reality was so much more complex.

@Livingtothefull I can tell you about the binoculars - there was a late change in the officers as Wilde was parachuted in and the officer who made way had the keys to said cabinet. Which is amazing in itself.

Ruths job, as mother to an upper class but short-of-cash daughter of marriagable age at time, was to see Rose made the best match she could. And Cal was certainly a good catch (overlooking the abuse, attempted murder, bribery etc). Ruth achieved exactly was expected of her at the time.

We saw the same in Downton Abbey - Mary was engaged to marry the heir, Patrick, as that was the best match for the family. She wasn't that bothered when he went down on Titanic, so there was no love-match there either. Cora and Robert were certainly not indifferent to her happiness but at the time, a good marriage was top priority. Their own marriage was arranged for similar reasons.

Ruth was a snob but she was doing the right thing (for her class and of that time) by Rose.
Rose was a disaster. Cheated on Cal, got Jack killed and throws away the diamond! 🙄

He doesn't. He's gay.

We saw the same in Downton Abbey - Mary was engaged to marry the heir, Patrick, as that was the best match for the family. She wasn't that bothered when he went down on Titanic, so there was no love-match there either. Cora and Robert were certainly not indifferent to her happiness but at the time, a good marriage was top priority. Their own marriage was arranged for similar reasons.

It’s not really the same thing, though. The point of Mary marrying Patrick was that the title etc would still pass to the current Earl’s grandson, even though Mary couldn’t inherit herself. Patrick turned out to be expendable anyway, as the same result was achieved via Matthew!

It is indeed amazing that there was no drill to ensure those keys were handed over. Or a backup pair of binoculars. Or no lifeboat drills. This is all very revealing about the inadequate safety standards prevalent at the time which led directly to the tragedy.

So who to point the finger of blame at: the radio operator who cut off the iceberg warning? Murdoch who was in charge of the ship at the time? The Captain who had overall responsibility for the ship? The White Star Line who built the ship with inadequate rivets? The British Board of Trade for their inadequate lifeboat regulations at the time?

I think we would need a lot of fingers.

That’s why I used to love that show ‘seconds to disaster’ it was all about the tiny details that contributed overall to a massive incident and loss of life, and without them all in the mix, things might have turned out very differently. It’s never just one thing, it’s all woven together.

@Livingtothefull Not sure I'd agree on the inquiries. I'd agree that certain individuals, particularly Ismay and Stanley Lord, came in for extensive criticism, but equally it's hard to argue they didn't deserve it as well. Ismay was the chairman of the White Star Line and bore huge responsibility for all manner of factors - and then obviously there's the fact he got into a lifeboat rather than dying like a "gentleman". That said, the US inquiry in particular was heavily focused on establishing why the disaster had had happened and on doing everything possible to ensure it wouldn't again.

The last couple of hours on the ship after it hit the iceberg were obviously chaotic and confusing and what I think is interesting is that there's virtually no mention of Wilde - and very little of Captain Smith - in much of the survivor testimony. I have read they were potentially overwhelmed by the enormity of the situation, which seems a possible explanation at least, and if the same applied to Murdoch, maybe he would take his own life. We'll never know.

The absolute complacency of all involved on the North Atlantic lines, not just Titanic/White Star Line, remains astounding. It seems to have been the prevailing view that, as a disaster hadn't happened, it couldn't and wouldn't. There's that famous Captain Smith quote from an interview on the maiden voyage of another ship about 5 years before thr Titanic, where he says he can't imagine anything happening to cause a ship to sink and says: "Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that". That aged well.

It always reminds me of what Nick Hornby said about the Hillsborough disaster, where he talks about the near misses he'd been involved in at matches over the years and hoe he always thought it would be alright because thr people in charge had a plan and knew what they were doing. Instead, it turned out they'd just been riding their luck the whole time.

Also, apologies for well and truly derailing the thread! Titanic is an absolute obsession of my dad's, and it turns out I may just have inherited some of that...

It's been a while, but the highest ranking officer on the ship behind the captain (can't remember his name or be arsed to look it up), was not originally supposed to be on the ship. Murdoch was Chief Officer already, but the Captain wanted his own experienced C.O. so all the senior officers were knocked down a level until I (think) the 3rd officer who was completely booted. He was also the man who had the binocular keys. So the keys were back in England and nobody wanted to damage the brand new ship to get to them.

Yeah I can't remember his name or be bothered to find it either. That stuff about damaging the ship endured as well, there's instances of crew threatening passengers with being reported for damaging it as it's sinking. Amazing really.

Well yes, exactly. It was about what was the best match for the family, and not about who Mary was attracted to. She knew her duty.
She seemed quite relieved he'd died and more put out about having to dress in black than anything else.
She did of course marry Matthew, so problem solved and luckily she'd fallen for him by then.

Incredible isn't it. It's a wonderful example of a perfect storm, right down to the unusual size of the icefield and the clearness of the night. But so much unbelievable complacency across the board, it's hard to fathom a century and more later. The only real surprise is that it hadn't happened before.

Humans tend to feel very safe if something has never happened before!

People that try and out others as gay are just utterly repulsive.

@Livingtothefull what happened about the radio warnings about the iceberg?

I read that Ismay was emotionally distraught about what happened and actually then tried to make amenda through various charitable endeavours.

The account of how depressed he became is very sad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Bruce_Ismay#Later_life

Wireless was still new technology so there was no set procedure for relaying messages to the captain/bridge. The Titanic was getting ice warnings from other ships in the day leading up to it hitting the iceberg and there's fairly reliable evidence several of them didn't make it to the bridge. As a result, they didn't realise the icefield ahead was larger and denser than they thought and steamed into it full pelt.

🤣🤣

@purpleme12 they were receiving ice warnings from other ships throughout the day. There were 2 radio operators employed by Marconi who made their money by forwarding messages from the passengers rather than from ice warnings....so the former were prioritised. One ice warning cut across the operator forwarding the passenger messages, he told the other ship's operator to 'shut up' and cut him off. I think that is depicted in the movie though can't quite recall.

Yeah his is a sad story. Even before Titanic, his marriage was unhappy and he had been absolutely dominated by his father.

One of the things I considered when in the Belfast museum a few years ago (which is absolutely wonderful by the way and it’s a fabulous city) reading all the names of the young men that went down with the ship, how many of them would have gone on to fight, and sadly perish, in the Great War starting just two years later.