Question for English teachers

[WinterCarlisle]

This is something that’s been bugging me since I was at secondary school.

WHY are so many of the set texts so bloody depressing? When I was at school (mid to late 80s) we did A Kestrel for a Knave which was pretty tragic swiftly followed by Z for Zachariah which was utterly terrifying. They were no fun AT ALL to real and tbh I’m still a bit traumatised <dramatic>.

My DS is 13 and has just finished The Boy in The Striped Pyjamas and they’ve now moved onto A Monster Calls. He’s quite a sensitive boy and he’s really not liking the second one at all, especially as a family friend recently died of cancer in her mid 40s.

Obviously I understand that they need to explore different themes and life isn’t all jolly but AIBU that maybe a few cheerful books might encourage them to read a bit more rather than DOOOOOOOMMMMM??

So:

YABU - Buck up kids, stop being Wet Hens and just read about life’s depressing abyss

YANBU - There’s enough doom and gloom already in this world. Let’s read some cheerful, yet literary books while we’re at school

When I attended a state run girls' grammar school in the early Seventies we had a wonderful English Literature teacher.
In the equivalent of today's Year Nine, we had a few copies of the following books which we had to swap between us.
Catcher in the Rye
Cry the Beloved Country
Grapes of Wrath
Kes
Midwich Cuckoos
Tess of the D'Urbervilles
The only stipulation being that you must read all of them and then write a report of of each novel and your thoughts on them and discuss the books amongst us.
I think she was quite clever as she was prepping your critical thinking for later O levels as well as creating anticipation for the more popular titles.

We also had to put on a production of Macbeth which is far more memorable than just sitting in class reading 'dry' text.

We didn't sit a test for the subject either for that year.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree!

I think it's hugely problematic to only teach children negative depictions of one sector of the population. If you look at the stats about the most popular texts taught to children, women and people of colour are either entirely invisible, or victims. I don't think that's a helpful narrative to keep reinforcing.

Again, if the texts are taught properly, you will be helping the students challenge those narratives. If you teach it poorly then of course it problematic, but then if you teach any subject poorly it’s problematic.

Like a history teacher - they will have to teach about racism, genocide, war, murder. If they teach it as ‘wow wasn’t this great’ of course that’s poor. I imagine they’re intelligent and capable of helping students learn to study history critically. Most English teachers should also be capable of this.

@EnidSpyton it will change - two jobs in a local, good school - one applicant 😫

I don't disagree. I'm not suggesting problematic texts should be taken off the curriculum entirely. But what I don't agree with is the prevalence of these types of texts and how they dominate the curriculum in many schools. The fact is that for many children, every single text they study while at school will have women and/or people of colour portrayed as victims. There needs to be some balance. At the moment, in many schools, there isn't any. If you're a girl in an English classroom, and you study one of each of the most popular texts in Year 7, 8 and 9, you'll never get to read about or talk about a female character who's inspiring in any way. You'll either never talk about a female character at all, or if you do, you'll be talking about how terribly she's treated by everyone else and what a victim she is. Likewise if you're a child of colour. I find that problematic - it's exclusive and frankly quite emotionally draining for anyone who's not white and/or male in a classroom to constantly have to think about people like them as being victims. While we can and should of course teach challenging texts that do portray problematic views and depictions, I think it's really important that curricula balance those texts carefully so that there's light and shade.

It's awful isn't it? And will only get worse in future when you see how low the numbers are taking Literature at A Level and at university 😔

I really enjoyed English literature up to GCSE. Sometimes our teachers would to pair books, so we did A Midsummer Night's Dream along with King of Shadows (boy time travels and swaps places with a boy who would have given Shakespeare the plague), and we did Arthurian legends, the Lady of Shalott and The Turbulent Term of Tyke Tyler together. We definitely did Sherlock Holmes short stories as well.

Sadly at GSCE I ended up doing Lord of the Flies, The Crucible, Macbeth and Oliver Twist. It was just too much misery for me! The poetry wasn't exactly cheerful either...

Oh ok, I thought you were suggesting problematic texts should be removed from the curriculum, since you said they had no place on the curriculum! You also seemed to think that there was no way to reach a text like Of Mice and Men without agreeing with Curley’s attitude towards his wife. So you can see why I thought that.

For me I find there often is balance. Of course it depends on the school and the texts taught there. I saw a lesson a while ago on ‘Persepolis’ which I thought was fantastic, although that was in a sixth form class! I’ve seen a lot of balance in texts that are taught. I would love to see Jane Eyre swapped out but that’s that I suppose! It seems to prevail no matter what.

We had Cider with Rosie. What about Cold Comfort Farm?

Certainly not! I don't think it's our job to just teach sunshine and rainbows! But I don't think Of Mice and Men has any place on a KS3 curriculum. I would only teach it at KS4, because I do think to teach it properly you need students mature enough to really grapple with the implications of its portrayals. In my experience, it's a rare KS3 pupil who can do that. Personally I wouldn't teach it at all anymore because I'm bored of it and have taught it too many times - there are better books out there I'd rather teach - but I can see why a lot of people do like teaching it, and the children do always seem to enjoy it. It's a matter of personal preference, I suppose. We've all had different experiences of teaching texts to varying groups of children, so we're always going to have differing views - and debating those views is the enjoyable part!

I'm glad you've seen balance. Unfortunately in many schools it's not the case and there's a lot of work to be done. I do a lot of teacher training across schools and at ITT providers and honestly, in so many schools, the lack of imagination when it comes to text choices, and the lack of thought when it comes to diversity, are terrible. Often nothing by a woman, nothing by a writer of colour, and in many schools, the same texts taught twice - I've been in several where they teach A Christmas Carol in Year 7 and then again for GCSE.

Persepolis is a great text - I've taught that at sixth form before - and it could be taught younger, if we weren't constrained by the piss poor text choices at GCSE. Funnily enough, I LOVE Jane Eyre and love teaching it! 😁Why don't you like it?!

I should say it was all taught well — I remember acting out scenes from The Crucible, we did little witch interrogations in pairs, learned about McCarthyism etc.

It was just the combination of the four texts meant there was never anything "nice".

(And actually, there is quite a bit of humour in Oliver Twist and you have the porter etc in Macbeth. But those bits weren't really discussed, presumably because the exam questions focus more on betrayal/greed/ambition rather than wordplay.)

I just hate it 😂 I don’t actually know why. I think it’s because Jane annoys me so so so much. I also hate Mansfield Park and I sort of bunch them up in my head as what Enid Blyton would call ‘too pi for words.’ I don’t know why I hate them particularly though. I shamefully hate A Christmas Carol too. I couldn’t teach it once never mind do it twice. I think I’m a bad English Lit graduate!

I’d be really shocked to see a syllabus with nothing written by a woman on it. Not even Shelley, or the dreaded Jane Eyre? No writing by a person of colour, I’d be less shocked because I have actually seen whole classes with no text assigned by any person who isn’t white. Personally I think by GCSE something like Chinua Achebe or perhaps even a short passage from Toni Morrison (maybe not a full text as some of them could be too much at that age) would be appropriate. I believe I read Their Eyes Were Watching God around that age but I think now looking back some of the subject matter would perhaps be too graphic.

Yes, I do feel Persepolis could be taught younger. Perhaps GCSE year. However, I’ve never seen a graphic novel as part of the curriculum until sixth form/uni. Maybe they use them in other schools. Perhaps it’s because a foray into a completely different genre like graphic novel would be too out there while kids are still getting to grips with literature.

YANBU. As a counsellor, I've had students with anxiety start avoiding school and dropping/ swapping classes due to the nature of some texts or lesson topics. Obviously we can't shield them from the world but it's important we don't just completely shatter their innocence and hope for the future at what is already a time of great personal change and adjustment.

YANBU, and I agree (as an English teacher). However, I would say when I've given my kids options as far as their reading choices they're most put out if most of those options aren't dark, gloomy or about some murderous plot line. I thought they'd appreciate some more jolly options to read in their spare time but they were fuming - and this is across multiple classes!! Thinking about it, dystopian topics are some that I find most interesting to read so I can't really blame them.

God we did some awful books for GCSE - DH Lawrence’s The Virgin and the Gypsy. I’d probably enjoy it if I ever read it again but 15 yr old me hated it. Also disliked Waiting for Godot.

I only taught OMAM to KS4 , never younger ones - I campaigned against that at my school. We do Coram Boy and Medusa at KS3.

I hate Jane Eyre, to - hated teaching it. The kids found it drippy tbh.

It is possible to get through the entire AQA A level spec without teaching anything (one or two poems aside ) by a woman, or a person of colour, if you choose the war route. That's on the exam board and is properly shit.

My DS has read lots of books. He is a lovely soul and the tow books thta made him come home and cry were Animal Farm and OMAM - but they have stayed with him and are his favourite ever books.

Can I protest enid about you saying Christmas Carol is dull as ditchwater?

I adore it, I adore teaching it. It's the ne book I have taught that got a round of applause when I finished the last page.

If a teacher loves a book it will shine through.

I taught all about the sexism in OMAM.

I think you are doing lots of English teachers a bit of a disservice enid.

@KTheGrey how on earth is Once funny? A toddler found shot dead in it's high chair is the scene that sticks out in my mind.

Can someone please explain why they think The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas shouldn't be taught? It must be 10yrs plus since I read it so I can't remember much about it besides the basics.

I've had to withdraw Beowulf from our primary curriculum as during covid the children started to find it too scary. Was fine for years before that so I'm not totally sure what changed - probably the general climate of fear wasn't helpful.

@FourEyesGood

I don't think the book has to be light hearted? Perhaps action based which can still include death if that's what you want but in a more action setting.

I got my teen dd some action books I Csnt remembered the name of the two authors.

My dd has been doing a book about murder and has calmed home talking about corpses s d how they disintegrate. She's 10

Except on the whole humans aren't. Take Lord of the Flies. A similar real life situation was totally different. They supported each other, even when one had a broken leg. Link

More times than not people are kind and help each others, even strangers and by putting themselves in danger.

But this doesn't make good novels.

Interested to hear your thoughts about why this has started happening recently. I started having complaints about Beowulf (the Michael Morpurgo version so not that bad) from primary parents in 2020 and had to withdraw it. The range of texts I feel I am 'allowed'to teach has really narrowed recently as more middle class parents complain.

Interestingly, I teach an intervention / reading for pleasure group for pupil premium kids, with no curriculum to follow. I have found that I have to choose really gritty texts for them otherwise they don't engage. They love murder, violence, curses, etc - stuff I could never get away with teaching my usual classes. It's my favourite time of the week teaching them as I love the freedom to go deeper with them and explore darker themes. They get bored with light hearted stuff and don't engage.

@EnidSpyton great post and obviously add to that some teachers have no research skills.

However We loved a Christmas Carol.

What books would you suggest

I guess that aren't considered great literature but there are lots of sci-fi short stories which are accessible to kids and not too miserable. Arthur C Clark and Philip K Dick for starters.

Sure you can! I find A Christmas Carol unbearably saccharine, simplistic, and, as with all Dickens novels (in my view), horrendously overwritten. Dickens was paid by the word and it really shows! If you want to teach 19thc literature, there are far better options out there, in my view. And if you want to teach children a moral fable, there are also far better options out there. I don't think it's a text that inspires children to develop a love of literature or makes them desperate to pick up the book to read the next chapter and find out what happens next. For me, it truly is dull as dishwater. But each to their own - you hate Jane Eyre, and I love it. I think it's a masterpiece and I love teaching it, and my students have all loved it, too. As you say - if you love a book, you transmit that enthusiasm to your kids.

And I know teachers teach the sexism in OMAM. I didn't say that they didn't. I just don't think it's taught to the right age groups to enable them to really understand the significance of that sexism or be able to truly engage with why the portrayal of Curley's wife is so problematic. I'm an English teacher, but I also have a wider role going into schools and ITT providers as a subject specialist trainer providing CPD. As such, I can tell you from experience of a lot of settings that OMAM is frequently taught at Year 7 and 8, and in many school settings, engaging 11 and 12 year olds with complex and challenging ideas around representations of women, sexual and domestic and violence and so on, is largely unsuccessful. Instead, students are left with very troubling notions about Curley's wife, which is evidenced in a lot of their written work. I've had so many conversations with teachers about this and why their students aren't able to see beyond the viewpoints of the male characters when it comes to Curley's wife, despite having lessons where they discuss sexism, and my response is always that they just don't have the maturity to do so. And why would they? They've got no life experience to draw on to be able to think about how and why such treatment of a woman can come about on an isolated cattle ranch filled with deeply lonely, damaged men.

I don't think I'm doing English teachers a disservice to raise these issues. I think it does us all good to sit back and reflect on what we're teaching and why, and whether what we're teaching really is appropriate for our students at the stage of life and intellectual development they're at. I think we teach a lot of classic texts far too early and there's a lot of room for debate about what makes a good KS3 text.