Teacherless classrooms with kids running amok in schools buildings that are crumbling

[noblegiraffe]

....that's where we're at in education, after 13 years of Conservative rule.

Ed Dorrell thinks that the state of schools could be a big election issue.

I fucking hope so.

https://capx.co/could-the-looming-schools-crisis-become-a-big-election-issue/

I do hope it is, but, as with all elections, it would be very helpful to see what all of the other parties would do, and how it would be funded.

It's hard to take seriously an article full of unsupported quotations.

There are links in the article supporting what he is saying.

Here are some more:

Government survey of school behaviour: https://schoolsweek.co.uk/wake-up-call-for-schools-as-weeks-of-lessons-lost-to-misbehaviour/

Recruitment and retention crisis report: https://www.nfer.ac.uk/teacher-labour-market-in-england-annual-report-2023/

Crumbling buildings: https://schoolsweek.co.uk/school-building-safety-funding-repairs-fears-collapse/

Oh good m. Just like 80s again. What could go wrong?

I don't teach anymore but I still have cause to go into school and colleges. I never see teacherless classrooms. Nor are children running round the admittedly old but perfectly serviceable buildings. And certainly, MN is full of parents complaining that their children aren't even allowed to leave the classrooms to go to the loo so I don't think it's common in their schools either.
Is your school like this? Are you all just sat chatting or maybe cowering in the staffroom whilst the students run riot and rampage through the corridors?

I never see teacherless classrooms.

Just because there's an adult in the room, it doesn't mean it's a teacher. There is a well-documented shortage of teachers, particularly in secondary. I'm not sure, if you have cause to go into schools and colleges, how you can have missed it.

Nor are children running round the admittedly old but perfectly serviceable buildings.

There's also a well-documented problem with crumbling school buildings. The DfE have raised the risk level of school building collapse to "very likely"

I'm not sure your observations are particularly useful.

And children not being allowed out to the loo points to massive issues with behaviour, not a lack of them. What happened to cause that ban? Internal truancy, vandalism and vaping are the usual causes.

They're not useful to you because my experience doesn't back up your argument. 😆

I can't say that every class has had an active teacher in every lesson but that has always been the case as long as I can remember. Even bank teachers going back 20 years, maybe more, would be put in classes that they had no quals in. They were there to keep order and oversee work set by the usual teachers. Clearly that doesn't happen in your school if you've got children rampaging round the classrooms and corridors during lesson times. That would just not be allowed to happen in the school and college where I go to. I wouldn't say discipline it tight but itscreasonable enforced.

Our 2 local grammar schools are both in old buildings. One built in the 1910s. One built in the 1500s. I'm sure they have issues, most buildings do. We have a brand new health centre and the air con still doesn't work. I also taught for many years in a college in the centre of town in a building put up in the 40s. It's solid walls and not crumbling, although it's heating system needs an overhaul. True they've invested in extensions to keep up to date with new technologies.) But it doesn't mean that all buildings are crumbling and falling down. Those 2 grammar schools are actually in high demand. We've had 3 brand new schools built in the adjoining major borough to us.
None of these schools are very likely to collapse. Not even likely. Not even might.

If thats the case, isn't that the fault of parents? Why are trying to blame the schools and the DfS?

I don't think it's as bad as you say.

One school local to us was in a mess, moved from Good to Inadequate, has joined a successful academy group, and several of the long-standing (and resistant to any change) staff were moved on. It was dealt with. That's one senior school among six in our town.

My ds was 11 and given a place at that school two years before the Ofsted. I already knew it was in chaos so I mortgaged my soul and sent him to a local independent. Great school, small class sizes, good results etc. Their music & drama department is in a terrapin. Remember those temporary classrooms from the 80s! The school hall is a 1950s building that badly needs heating, insulation, new windows etc. Crumbling buildings are not confined to the state sector. And they don't stop decent education/good grades/good behaviour.

It would be really interesting to see the list of the buildings not fit for purpose. Round here, there are loads of very new, shiny academies; that seems to be the trend.

mintjunior (presume a name change?) I think as an outsider you may be mistaken about what being taken over by a MAT means. It’s also usually incorrect to state the ‘staff unwilling to change’ have been moved on. Not man people want their contracts changed which joining a MAT means. It doesn’t mean the teachers were rubbish, it probably means they were experienced, and therefore expensive and don’t want to teach from the same PowerPoint as the whole MAT use (as, you know, sometimes children and whole classes are different and the current Ofsted ‘consistency’ mantra is just academisation by the back door. If you think that’s a good thing for society, school or pupils then you are very sadly mistaken. I don’t blame you for going primate but please don’t believe everything Ofsted says or that academies are a good thing (other than for the bank balance of their leaders….).

This often happens on threads about teaching.

Poster A - listen! Real issues in teacher.
Poster B - no not that bad.
Poster A - links to actual evidence, research etc.
Poster B - ignores evidence because when they sat in a school 30 yrs ago/walked past one/read about useless teachers all was all right.
5 yrs time - "why didn't you tell us ..."

It's so infuriating every time. That people on the ground aren't listened too, that evidence isn't listened to. This thread demonstrates that well.

The crumbling schools are due to a building issue.
'Ministers have launched a UK government-wide inquiry into the use of crumbling concrete in public buildings following fears that nurseries, offices, shops and leisure facilities are in danger of collapse.
Every Whitehall department has been ordered to assign a civil servant to identify the use of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete (RAAC) across the £158bn government estate, the Guardian has learned.'
It's about 150 schools.

Banning going to the loo - What happened to cause that ban? Internal truancy, vandalism and vaping are the usual causes.
And the teachers are to blame for that - hilarious.

I'm reminded of that West Wing quote:
"Mallory, education is the silver bullet. Education is everything. We don't need little changes, we need gigantic, monumental changes. Schools should be palaces. The competition for the best teachers should be fierce. They should be making six-figure salaries. Schools should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge to its citizens, just like national defense. That's my position. I just haven't figured out how to do it yet."

Governments are too short-termist. Education shouldn't be seen as spending: it should be considered as investment. The most effective thing you can do to improve the economy, the tax revenue, etc. in the future is invest and improve the quality of education today. Governments don't do it because they don't want their spending to bear fruit during their opposition's time in government. As such, measures are sought only as quick or minor fixes, the long-term changes needed are ignored and schools continue to do their best with what they have rather than having what they need to do their best for children.

I'm afraid I agree with a pp that it is likely more expensive teachers were pushed out. There was a thread just recently about a teacher who'd had a career of Good or Outstanding lesson observations suddenly being told she was inadequate. The only two teachers in school in the same boat were also the other two at the top of the main pay scale. I think I've met a grand total of two people in primary education who have positive things to say about academisation, and one of them benefitted from it financially; I know plenty others, including heads and Ofsted inspectors, who think it is dreadful, and several who have left education altogether because of it.

Come to my school then. You will find plenty of classrooms without teachers. There may be supply teachers who are non-specialists or cover supervisors, who are not teachers.

We have parents on social media complaining that their dc are not allowed to the toilet. By this they mean they are challenged if they are found to go every lesson, or asked if they really need to go five minutes before the end, or removed from toilets if they are spending lunchtime in there, preventing younger ones from using the loos. What some parents say isn't completely reliable.

Some of our buildings have recently been deemed unsafe by DfE inspectors but a successful bid for funds to replace the roof has been agreed but 'pending' for weeks now, with no explanation given, meaning the works are unlikely to be completed over the summer - or at least there is a risk they won't be as more time goes by with it just 'pending'.

It's an utter shitshow in schools now and if you are visiting several and can't see it I'm not sure what use your visits can possibly be.

Yup local grammar school to me has often had their cover teacher in as there are missing teachers - and that's a very good school. It was getting to the point where "oh it was a cover" was something that was just normal several times a week.

I've posted about this before but many many primary schools will use an hlta 1 day a week to cover for head of yesrs ppa day. We fairly regularly get "my child is being taught by a TA!' Threads. Not legal in Scotland and didn't used to be in England- we used to have a rule that there had ti be a qualified teacher in the class and now there isn't are we surprised what we have got!?

It's just further eroding the expectation that you will even have a qualified teacher teaching your child.

I was at a very very poor school in the 80s. It’s nothing like the 80s.

You don't know what my visits are for so you don't how useful they are!

In my local school, I know, because I've been there, that all the toilets are locked during lesson times. Students need a key to go which they can't have without permission from the teacher. All teachers encourage children to wait. I never heard of anyone being told no, except maybe the usual suspects. However, unlike your school, the students aren't rioting in the hallways nor rampaging round the buildings.

Your building is deemed unsafe and you have been allotted money to have it made safe.

Some of these replies are a little deluded as to the state of things.

In the last 12 months two separate classrooms in different buildings in my school have had ceilings literally falling in, both narrowly missing the teachers in the rooms at the time. One of the offices has mould covering the wall.

Remember those temporary classrooms from the 80s you say? Yup. We still have one. It has 6 rooms that are in daily use.

No teachers? Might be a slight exaggeration but we have a number of temporary staff that were taken on from supply but are woefully under skilled and we haven't managed to recruit for the 3 vacancies we have for September so we will have non specialists teaching ks3 next year.

Yes I'm just one school. A snapshot. But you will find similar stories everywhere.

Experienced teachers moved on because they were resistant to change? Because consistency and continuity from skilled and experienced experts in their subjects is definitely a bad thing. I've been teaching for 20 years. I would like to think I know how to teach my subject inside out. Whilst there are many positives to ECTs- being full of enthusiasm, great ideas and energy - I'm also sure someone fresh from teacher training doesn't have the same depth of knowledge or understanding of how students learn as I do.

I went on mat leave in December and the class I taught is still teacherless. There is an adult in the room but they are not a teacher because the school could not get one.

We also have woeful send provision that is falling apart at the seams. Our lea seems to have a revolving door of case workers and a lskc of sen spaces

This is a great post. The UK is supposed to be one of the richest countries in the world and one of the most advanced economies. We specialise in industries that need a highly educated workforce - very niche areas of manufacturing, financial services, the arts, and so on. All the things that can be made cheaply by lower skilled people are mostly imported. There aren't many jobs left for poorly educated kids. So why aren't we investing in our young people so we can keep this economy going? We need to invest heavily in education and really push it as a priority for everybody - lifelong learning, properly funded in service training for all sorts of jobs, top notch vocational training for those who don't want to go to university.

As well as drastically improving what goes on in schools from nursery to sixth form we need a huge push to support families with babies and young children. Far too many kids have their card marked in the early months of life. Their language and social skills are poor when they start school and they never catch up.

As for schools, my children are adults now, but what I want for current schools is what I wanted for them - a qualified teacher in every class. In secondary schools I want children taught by subject specialists. It doesn't seem much to ask. Other countries manage it, what on earth's gone wrong here?

Nightlystroll

You don't appear to understand. The thread title comes from the article by Ed Dorrell, who is not a teacher, but a journalist who is reporting on the situation in schools. He, and I have posted links to data which back up these claims.

You cannot, therefore, counter this by saying things like " my school isn't crumbling". It's the DfE who have reported that the risk of school collapse is "very likely" (although the Conservatives voted down telling parents which schools are the most at risk). And it's not just the autoclaved concrete issue, the DfE reports that "the modelled cost of “remedial work to repair or replace all defective elements in the school estate” is £11.4 billion, with the average secondary school needing £1.6 million worth of work."