To be fed up with the amount of tax / ni I pay

[Elephantstone1]

although my salary looks decent from the outside. I’m beginning to get really fed up with the amount of tax / ni I pay.

so on £60k end up coming out with just around £3k per month from £5k after all taxes (including council tax) have been paid.

we’re not entitled to any help that others may get

my commute costs about £400 a month, but I’ve already paid tax on that money, so i have to earn about £600 a month to pay for it.

i know I’m lucky to be on a decent salary. Just with the col increasing, I’m getting a bit fed up

There are broadly two ways to do a social safety net -

1. one that is generous but clearly and fairly tightly defined - you pay in, you get out, often in prorpotion to what you paid in. This is geenrally how it is done in more generous Scandi countries.
2. a broader but far less generous "safety net" system where pretty much anyone who qualifies can take out regardless of what they paid in.

We in the UK have an uneasy combination of the two. There are good points and bad points to both systems. People like the idea of the first one but it does require a much more homogeonous society with shared social norms and pretty low immigration. Which does come with its own downsides - for example the Dutch seriously limit dual citizenship.

I'm still a tax payer.

This with bells on! It’s what all economists say. So true! It’s when you increase taxes that everyone pay that we finally raise enough to make a difference to public services.

If you're not a net contributor then you take out more than you pay in. You're more of a tax beneficiary than you are a tax payer. As I mentioned previously, literally anyone that has bought virtually anything will be a tax payer having paid some VAT but I think we can agree that my six year old son isn't a tax payer in the same way as OP? Same way as your contribution isn't the same as someone that loses a massive chunk of their salary each month and receives no government top ups or benefits.

Yes, I take out more than I pay in. But I'm still a tax payer. I pay tax on my salary. However you word it doesn't stop it from being true.

I suspect many of those claiming to be net contributors are deluding themselves.

It's worth pointing out that because of housing and childcare costs being so high, there are thousands of people in the UK who pay higher rate income tax whilst also qualifying for UC.

Do you think of yourself as a tax payer in the same way as a net contributor is a tax payer? You literally receive more in benefits than you pay in back out of the system. If they simplified the system so you paid no tax and got less benefits then it would be clearer that you are indeed a net benefit claimant and not a tax payer at all. The quirk in the system let's people think that they are something that they aren't.

Most people get back more than they pay in, including most people who imagine themselves to be net contribuitors. They think about the tax they pay and the benefits they don't claim, and think they are in the black. They forget about all the costly services they use and don't factor any of it in.

If you have a couple of children in public schools and had them in NHS hospitals, you're likely well in the red.....

I don't really think of myself as anything. Someone earning minumum wage but not claiming any benefits isn't a net contributor either.

@chupachucks not all of us can
If nobody does the lower paid jobs then we are fucked
I went to uni, I've worked hard, the job situations near me are not well paid but I can't afford to move to another area because of house prices and because I'm on min wage and need to be near my remaining parent
I also have a shit load of health conditions and can't work more than 40hrs a week due to the fatigue and medication side effects

Just because I don't earn much doesn't mean I didn't work hard or I don't have qualifications/a degree

In the aggregate sense, the line usually falls around £30k-£60k, depending on age, if you have children or not, and how healthy you are.

The younger folks tend to be large net tax payers (as they don't use the NHS much which is expensive) and have access to very few social benefits.

The largest drains on the public purse are the pensioners. They pay little tax and receive a large amount of benefits.

Best way forward for the UK is to gradually reduce the tax free amount (£12.57k) over 5 years, and make all the pensioners also pay NI since they use the NHS the most, and are now the wealthiest demographic cohort.

Thats how I would approach this problem.

Yep, I agree. People have lost touch with how much public services cost, especially when it comes to health procedures and social care. We therefore as a country are dependent on the minority of the population that are net contributors. This forum pours scorn on these people though for having the audacity to earn a decent amount of money and for the fact they want a say on how their money is spent.

If you think back to Victorian days then wealthy people were still altruistic but they could spend their money on causes they believed in and the recipients would often be grateful for their generosity. Now we use taxation to force the more wealthy to subsidize the poor in the way the state seems fit and the entitled recipients aren't grateful but instead are angry they haven't got more. I'm not saying we should return to the 19th century but I genuinely think the concept of the welfare state has eroded the idea that this is all funded by individuals who are losing out as net contributors for other people's benefit.

I would also tax all inheritance as income (with a very specific carve out for people that inherit all or part of their primary residence and some family businesses) - eg someone inheriting their partner's share of the marital home or a dependent adult child inheriting the home they lived in with their parents.

But I know that will not be popular on any level! 😂

The largest drains on the public purse are the pensioners. They pay little tax and receive a large amount of benefits.

Pensioner here. I pay more in tax than the state pension I receive. I can’t remember the last time I saw my GP - I think it was about 2015, no prescription medications. There are a lot like me, our occupational pensions ensure that just in terms of income tax we’re net contributors. We also pay over £3k a year in council tax, all we get for that is our bins emptied - that’s a hugely expensive service.

I would hazard if you are paying £10k plus in income tax a year, you are a pretty well off pensioner.

Ditto £3k a year in council tax.

You’d be guessing right. Pretty average in the circles I move in. There are more of us than you think.

Ha ha not I know alright - pensioners are on average the one of the wealthiest age demographics now.

You don't use roads? Parks? Benefit from having streetlights? A fire service? Visit pubs or restaurants with alcohol licenses?

It is called welfare dysfunction.

Figures published a few weeks ago show that 18% of Manchester’s adults are claiming out of work benefits. 120,000 have reported a long term sick. In Birmingham, one in five working age adults are on out-of-work benefits. In Blackpool, one in four.

Nationally, 5.3 million are on out of work benefits.

That doesn't change the reality of what I stated.

You cannot have 20% of the population (over 65s now in 2023) paying £0 NI and little tax. This is specially important as that % will increase to 25% by 2040 (aging society).

At a certain point, you will have to stop trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

The financial math simply does not work.

Full stop.

Yep. The problem ATM is the NHS is crumbling, the roads are full of craters, the police won't turn out to a burglary or ASB. That's when middle earners start resenting their tax bills.

You won't get any sympathy but it's shocking how tax bands haven't moved.

60k today is equivalent to about 42k in 2010!

I don't know where PPs are getting the idea that earning £90k means earning less than you pay in tax & NI. I'm on ~£95k, which works out as £7595 net, £5211 gross. I take home nearly 70% of my salary.

I'm fortunate to earn enough that I can afford a comfortable life for my family. That wasn't the case when the DC were little: I was a single mum on a low salary, relying on government top-ups to make ends meet. I don't begrudge contributing now to make sure people have enough for the basics, or that there's enough money for public services. I don't think the current government is doing a great job in spending public money, which is why I won't vote for them at the next election.

People want low taxes, but good public schools, more funding for the nhs, a welfare state, pensions, childcare help and on and on and on.

I don't think people begrudge higher taxes if we have good services.