To think that Personal Beauty Standards/Choice is not "Social Conditioning"

[MammyZ]

Just on the back on the toenail painting thread - my response to that one would be - Of course you don't have to paint them, your feet and toenails really just need to look clean and tidy. However, if your personal standard is that you like your nails painted especially with open-toed shoes, then for a wedding you will probably feel better if you can find the time to do them!

Of course there were many different responses on thread ranging from "you defo need to paint them!' to "why would you bother painting them?". And then there were comments that painting your nails is a result of the patriarchy or social conditioning that women are subject to.

Personally I wouldn't be the very highest maintenance woman but I have highlighted my dark-blond hair since I was 16 (I don't run back to the salon after 6-8 weeks), I love getting shellac on my fingers and toes (I get the toes done about 5 times a year and just clip them in the meantime as they grow!). I also always wear foundation in public but that's because I have rosacea and feel more confident with the redness covered. I am very particular about looking after my sensitive skin to manage this also.

But for a wedding I think that there's an effort that I like to make - whether this be shaven legs (I'm fairly fair so I'm not obsessive about shaving all time but for a wedding it's a minimum in my book), a bit of tan and painted nails if I'm wearing sandals, or tights if closed-toe.

Do some people really think that I and others only do these things because I have been socially conditioned by the patriarchy? Where is the line between grooming - which takes effort and time also - and crossing into doing things because we think it's expected of us?

I personally think it's my own personal standard and choice to do these things because I love the way I feel when they're all done. And I enjoy the time that I put in to and the effort I put into getting ready for an event.

TAAT just say what you want on the original thread

Yes of course you do. It's social conditioning.

If our society viewed being well groomed as painting big green circles on our cheeks and shaving our hair in a noughts and crosses pattern, then you'd do that instead.

You only have to look at non western beauty standards to realise how your idea of what groomed is has been shaped by the world you live in.

Any grooming I do, I do for myself. I am long past caring what others think of me.

Well apologies, I thought of that, but I didn't want that lady's question to get dragged into discussion - she has specific challenges with her time and her baby etc. As I said if she's asking that I personally think and believe it's up to her. It's the other comments questioning WHY women do these things that I'm talking about.

Removing any body hair is done for the patriarchy really, not saying I don't do it but that's its origins surely

Well the tan is an obvious example of ingrained societal grooming standards. If you lived in Japan you wouldn’t be looking to fake tan because tanning is not considered attractive. Quite the opposite.

Of course it's social conditioning. That's why "grooming" standards are drastically different between cultures, sexes, and ages.

So what you do is choice? But other people it's conditioning?
It's only choice realty if it's totally free from bias and expectations.
So, very few dress and make-up choices are truly free choice. They're a choice within a range that the cultural norm prescribed. Or a big hop outside it!
Western culture is structurally patriarchal, whether you personally see it or not.
Grooming is fundamentally socially constructed.

Ok well I take your point insofar as many things we do are due to social conditioning, because we are social animals. We wear clothes, live in houses, wash ourselves etc.

But my point is that I know that I have a choice in the matter. If there are women who choose not to wear makeup, dye their hair, paint their nails, I don't judge them for not doing it. I'm making my choices, and they're making theirs.

Are my choices only because I think it's expected of me?

I don't think they are!

Yes of course it's social conditioning! How could it not be? Shellac, for example, hasn't always been available. It wasn't a thing before it became trendy. Having a tan used to be considered undesirable. A lot more people had poodle perms when they were fashionable. Straightening your hair was unheard of in the 1980s!!

Do some people really think that I and others only do these things because I have been socially conditioned by the patriarchy?

Yes. Hth

But you're huffing about it as though we are saying there's something weak-willed on your part or that we are insulting you as if you could choose and you've made a bad choice.

We are all socially conditioned in a huge number of ways. We don't behave like our grandmothers. No shame to them or us, we're just acting like the big chimps we are and trying our best to be accepted into a society which rewards those who have genetic predisposition to fitting in.

Why does it bug you so much?

If I had legs like some Japanese women I wouldn't put tan on. I do it because I think the lightest tan (from the daily Dove one) is better on me than my blue legs!

Being free of body hair, makeup on, wearing a dress, hair done up makes me feel good too OP. As far as that's concerned, I do it for myself- but the only reason that I feel good about those things is that society has dictated that those are the things that should make me feel good. It's sad really- the patriarchy kind of owns that clean, smooth, pretty feeling I get when I'm done up.

Are my choices only because I think it's expected of me?

Yes, mainly. Otherwise you'd be making other choices. You probably wouldn't bother to shave your legs, for example. And why would you bother spending money at the hairdresser 's if you didn't think society expects you to look a certain way?

Of course it's social conditioning. Why else would you consider it grooming? Being clean is basic self-care. Everything else is grooming.

And to your last point OP, nobody is saying that your choice to put shellac on your nails means you are judging those who don't, or that they are judging you. Just that we can see that you are making a choice that helps you fit into a social world. When I DON'T paint my toenails I am maybe making a choice that helps me fit into a group that I want to be part of.

Saying you don't have to do it is true. It is also true that when you do do it, is is a choice you make due to social conditioning. The social conditioning is what puts shellac on the table as one of a number of legitimate choices for you.

I do it because I think the lightest tan (from the daily Dove one) is better on me than my blue legs!

Yes, but if blue legs were fashionable other people would be buying blue leg cream and you'd be considered a natural beauty!

I'm not huffing about anything and I'm not bugged about it either. I am curious when I hear the flip side view "you're only doing these things because you've socially conditioned".

Of course I know that trends change etc, but I do think there's enough options out there that people can choose the one for themselves without it being boiled down to all social conditioning

You think your ‘blue’ legs are unattractive because you live in a society where tan is seen as attractive. Sun beds have been replaced by safer fake tans but the beauty ideal has stayed the same. It’s actually a relatively recent beauty trend. Tanned skin on women was seen as a sign that they had to work outdoors, so avoiding the sun and having porcelain skin was considered the ideal. That’s why all the sun parasols and gloves in period dramas.

Of course it is social conditioning. Look at grooming standards in any civilisation throughout time - Romans, Egyptians, Vikings, etc.

Humans are social mammals.

but there are no options outside social conditioning:)

A lot more people had poodle perms when they were fashionable.

This. It's all just fashion. Fashion is driven by the society that creates it. You might feel you have free choice OP but you are told repeatedly through the media what is expected of women today. And what is desirable today won't be the same in a couple of years.

Even ancient civilisations had hair removal. It’s a concept that has been passed on for centuries, enforcing the concept of traditional male and female features. No matter how you look at it, there is definitely a patriarchal element to it and always has been.

Agree that it is social conditioning but that people shouldn’t feel bad or ashamed of whatever grooming they do or don’t do. And heartily agree that it isn’t ’weak-willed’ to adhere to grooming and beauty standards. It’s what the majority of us do, after all.

In an ideal world, I wouldn’t shave my legs or armpits, even to go to a wedding. I’m inherently lazy and would always choose to have an extra 20 minutes in bed than spend time grooming. I also really don’t like the feel of freshly shaved skin. But I do shave (if I’m going to a wedding at any rate!) Because it’s ‘normal’ and expected and I’m not strong enough to withstand people staring or commenting or thinking that I’m trying to ‘make a point’. 🤷🏼‍♀️

This.

Technically, it's free will and choice. But the choices we make are dictated by society, specifically the patriarchy.

Why on earth do women insist they only feel 'clean' when hairless and men who are fastidious and hygiene-focused don't? Why do no men own hair straighteners?

The range of choices you are 'allowed' is the same. Your illusion of choice is deciding within that range.