To think that Personal Beauty Standards/Choice is not "Social Conditioning"

[MammyZ]

Just on the back on the toenail painting thread - my response to that one would be - Of course you don't have to paint them, your feet and toenails really just need to look clean and tidy. However, if your personal standard is that you like your nails painted especially with open-toed shoes, then for a wedding you will probably feel better if you can find the time to do them!

Of course there were many different responses on thread ranging from "you defo need to paint them!' to "why would you bother painting them?". And then there were comments that painting your nails is a result of the patriarchy or social conditioning that women are subject to.

Personally I wouldn't be the very highest maintenance woman but I have highlighted my dark-blond hair since I was 16 (I don't run back to the salon after 6-8 weeks), I love getting shellac on my fingers and toes (I get the toes done about 5 times a year and just clip them in the meantime as they grow!). I also always wear foundation in public but that's because I have rosacea and feel more confident with the redness covered. I am very particular about looking after my sensitive skin to manage this also.

But for a wedding I think that there's an effort that I like to make - whether this be shaven legs (I'm fairly fair so I'm not obsessive about shaving all time but for a wedding it's a minimum in my book), a bit of tan and painted nails if I'm wearing sandals, or tights if closed-toe.

Do some people really think that I and others only do these things because I have been socially conditioned by the patriarchy? Where is the line between grooming - which takes effort and time also - and crossing into doing things because we think it's expected of us?

I personally think it's my own personal standard and choice to do these things because I love the way I feel when they're all done. And I enjoy the time that I put in to and the effort I put into getting ready for an event.

every single thing you do above eating, drinking, sleeping and breathing has been impacted by society and your cultural heritage- from family all the way up to the media.

Some of it can feel like a choice and of course it is - because you absolutely can say no thanks not for me. But even recognising that you’re making a choice to not do something that many other women do - is to recognise that you’re going against an ingrained norm.

Do you remember that scene in devil wears prada where Miranda gives a lecture about how a particular shade of blue has been chosen for her by the fashion industry- even though Andy believes herself to be above it all.

ultimately you can absolutely do things because they make you feel good but trying to separate out the roots of why it is even a thing (shaving, nails, make up, hair dye) is impossible. These things all exist because of the cultural history of the world you inhabit.

Who is criticising? I don't care what other women do as it doesn't impact me. I do object to people saying they're not being influenced because we all are!

Your specific standards sound pretty high maintenance to me. Fakensils even on toes. Would feel better about yourself if you painted toes for wedding, why if no judgement? Use of the word standards and the phrase make an effort. A perfect example of someone who is very high maintenance that's surely from society. Really not seeing how you think you are not perpetuating this!

I think if you believe you're not socially conditioned at all then you're deluded. There are things we'd all wear on holiday or in the back garden but we'd never wear them to work. Ask any bride what she wore and the majority will say a long white dress. Why?

Of course there are differences between us which is more than high v low maintenance. I don't mind having 'scruffy' hair. My mum is always suggesting I 'sort' or 'do' my unruly long hair. I'm not in the least nowhere about getting a tan or painting my toe nails but I'd never wear a skirt with hairy legs.....I would at home though, and no bra and a holey t-shirt. I think we are all socially conditioned.

I don't think it's purely men instigating it though. Most men loves high heels. Now it's perfectly acceptable to wear pumps/trainers with a dress/suit. Not because women rebelledbut because some model/actess/influencer/the media said so.

Social conditioning, no doubt about it

We’re all influenced by social conditioning. Every last one of us. The decisions we make about grooming and clothes and so on aren’t made in a vacuum.

I know there’s differences between how much individuals do - whether it’s fake tan or painting toenails or clothing choices or whatever - but I think it’s really hard to unpick how much of that is down to social conditioning, and how much is free choice.

People who are defyers tend to be a bit sniffy about complyers, but it's two sides of the same coin.

Some compliers are absolute believers in compliance even when there are negative health issues associated with compliance (e.g. folliculitis from pubic shaving, fungal infections from shellac nails, skin irritation from hair dye), and some use words like 'gross' and 'lazy' about defiers (there was quite a lot of that on the toenail thread) so I'm not sure the sniffiness just goes one way.

This made me laugh.

I'm part of different social groups with their own different standards and I notice myself adapting a bit, even if I am lower maintenance than most.

I'd say individual elegance is harder to cultivate. Problem is that people get swept up with trends that may not always suit them and they can end up looking like memes of social conditioning.

Social conditioning definitely.
My personal opinion is that people of both sees have their toes out too freely. I don't think many men would have their toes out at a wedding.

Both sexes. My phone doesn't like sexes. 😅

Nobody is criticising because almost all of us conform. Go to a busy street and you're very unlikely to see a single woman showing unshaved legs or unshaved armpits. Because talking about "choice" as the OP does is disingenuous; yes, we are legally free to show unshaved legs, but we won't be free of the consequences. At the least you'll get stares, but it can be much worse. E.g. you could lose job opportunities or promotion because your boss won't send a woman with visible hairy legs to a client meeting. Not quite the breezy choice the OP pretends it is.

I can go along with social conditioning. And I'm grateful for some of it, like hygiene standards. But why is it patriarchal these days when women are pretty free to do as they like? How are men influencing my hair colour and cut? I'm much more likely to be influenced by women over clothes.and social grooming.

BUT my point is that I DO recognise that not shaving your legs is an option, and the world won't end if I went out with a bit of visible fluff on my legs. And nowadays there's the freedom to not shave your underarms if you don't want to. If I saw/met someone who didn't do it I have no judgement, I recognise they are making the free choice not to do it. And I'm making the choice to do it (every now and then when I remember

I think that post demonstrates how socially conditioned you are.
Most women who don't shave their underarms are not making a choice - they are doing nothing and simply don't even think about it. Because what is there to think about? It's not unhygienic (assuming you wash) and has no impact on anyone else. Making it even something that there is a choice about indicates you are subscribing to the social conditioning that you should care.

Social conditioning or not, who cares. Paint your nails if you like, as I will continue to do so.

I will say that actually the majority of my clothing and fashion decisions are more influenced by other women than by men.

Your “personal Standards ” are an expectation from society so yes yin are BVU