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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Universal basic income and what it may look like

534 replies

porkpiesinthepark · 04/06/2023 09:54

I've been thinking for a while about the criticism of UBI and I think it's due to people not being able to imagine the government trying to 'match' peoples wages. In my opinion, it never will but there will be alternatives to what we have now, which will be able to offer something better.

So say the UBI is £1000 a month for a single person.
We could change the housing market to allow much more public housing with rents set at an affordable level, much more stability, no private landlords and the option to customise/ change your home. Let's face it, home ownership is out of reach for the majority at present. I don't find people are dying to own their own homes but desperate to be out of the instability of the private rental market, out of parents houses, out of house shares etc. If you could offer the next best thing to owning your own house, I think people would go for it.
There would be much more community linked to people having extra time due to not working or not working as many hours. Now, not having enough to do in the day is bad but most people have these huge dreams for retirement and this would just allow them to do some of these things now instead. Also more volunteering, looking after elderly relatives etc.
I don't think that private car ownership would be a thing. There would be a big system like Uber who you could call rides on. There would be a cheaper option, say if ten people wanted to go to the city centre at the same time, they would have to walk to a hub and then the van would pick everyone up, like public transport but based on demand. It would be a status symbol to be able to call a car out just for you.
I think a lot more people would wfh getting the cost of transport and childcare down. Schools might even go remote, as there wouldn't be both parents working and so in theory they could help facilitate the lessons. Then teachers would have small classes of Sen kids like mine, key workers and vulnerable children. Kids would interact with others through volunteering groups with parents, or just playing out as there would be less cars and more parents around to keep an eye on them.
People will either hate this vision as it's so different to what we have now. Or they will like some parts. But what we have now can't continue.

OP posts:
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Freshfoods · 05/06/2023 07:42

This will be a great start. I'm not sure about the need for a control group. Wouldn't it cause a lot of bad feelings if the W family down the road is getting £1600 a month and the X family aren't getting anything and have to continue struggling?
Will it be means tested? Not everyone in these places needs the extra money.

BCCoach · 05/06/2023 07:43

EffortlessDesmond · 04/06/2023 21:34

Like @DdraigGoch, I would expect any UBI to be set at a NMW/pension level, and uprated with inflation. But then one has to consider the tax regime, so no personal allowances, and a flat rate income tax on all income, earned and unearned. Additional tax allowances for two, or maybe three children, per mother, but none for fathers unless awarded custody by court.

Most of the proposals for UBI I’ve seen don’t give any allowances for children or other dependents at all. So there would be no equivalent of child benefit or carer’s allowance. The only possible exception would be a higher UBI for those who are disabled and have additional costs, although a lot of the more extreme libertarians who support UBI believe even they should not be treated any differently.

SunnyEgg · 05/06/2023 07:44

Freshfoods · 05/06/2023 07:42

This will be a great start. I'm not sure about the need for a control group. Wouldn't it cause a lot of bad feelings if the W family down the road is getting £1600 a month and the X family aren't getting anything and have to continue struggling?
Will it be means tested? Not everyone in these places needs the extra money.

If it’s means tested isn’t that just the system we have for benefits?

BCCoach · 05/06/2023 07:46

Freshfoods · 05/06/2023 07:42

This will be a great start. I'm not sure about the need for a control group. Wouldn't it cause a lot of bad feelings if the W family down the road is getting £1600 a month and the X family aren't getting anything and have to continue struggling?
Will it be means tested? Not everyone in these places needs the extra money.

It won’t be means tested. That’s what the ‘universal’ bit means. It would replace all benefits, all personal tax allowances, and all state pensions. Some people would be worse off, some better off, but the argument is it would provide a very basic living standard. For anything more than the absolute basics you would need another source of income (work, investments, pension).

ClaireandTed · 05/06/2023 07:48

Freshfoods · 05/06/2023 07:42

This will be a great start. I'm not sure about the need for a control group. Wouldn't it cause a lot of bad feelings if the W family down the road is getting £1600 a month and the X family aren't getting anything and have to continue struggling?
Will it be means tested? Not everyone in these places needs the extra money.

It's just 30 people and a private initiative. They're looking for funding.so it may not go ahead. I just thought it was funny seeing it in the news today after this discussion.

Interesting that they would choose 15 in London and 15 in the North East.

ClaireandTed · 05/06/2023 07:50

This wouldn't provide useful data anyway seeing as anyone who currently receives certain benefits would have to notify the DWP of this temporary income. So the only people who would put themselves forward would be those who wouldn't lose their existing benefits

IncomingTraffic · 05/06/2023 07:53

£1600 a month. 30 people. A £1.15million budget for paying them for 2 years. 30 people.

Of course the people of central Jarrow thought that sounded like something they’d love to get involved in when they knocked on doors and asked people on Jobseeker’s Allowance if they’d rather get £1600 a months for 2 years. Jobseekers plus LHA is nowhere near that in jarrow.

Kazzyhoward · 05/06/2023 07:55

porkpiesinthepark · 04/06/2023 10:26

Surely the market would adapt if the majority of people were unemployed.
Bananas wouldn't stay at £1.50 a bunch for very long if no one could afford it. The price would drop, as would everything else.

Theres a price below which it's not economical to grow, pick, process and transport those bananas. So there's a minimum price or there won't be any to buy. Look at the current farming crisis where it's costing more to raise animals or row crops than the price farmers can sell for. Farmers are simply leaving their fields empty adding to the shortages but farm gate prices aren't rising as economic theory expects them to due to high demand/short supply.

Write2023 · 05/06/2023 07:56

I think they have this in a Middle East oil rich country for their native born. The model only works because they have slave wages and conditions for immigrants.

I believe the World’s resources will greatly diminish over the next couple of hundred years and society as we know it will be no longer.

Kazzyhoward · 05/06/2023 07:58

EffortlessDesmond · 04/06/2023 20:35

Apologies if this has been said before, but any UBI must come hand-in-hand with the removal of ALL tax credits and a much flatter income tax regime.

I agree, along with scrapping of NICs.

ClaireandTed · 05/06/2023 07:59

Write2023 · 05/06/2023 07:56

I think they have this in a Middle East oil rich country for their native born. The model only works because they have slave wages and conditions for immigrants.

I believe the World’s resources will greatly diminish over the next couple of hundred years and society as we know it will be no longer.

I was thinking about this yesterday, I'm sure I saw a documentary about it but couldn't remember which country?

But yes they basically 'imported' workers from other countries to do all the jobs they didn't want to.

BarbaraofSeville · 05/06/2023 08:02

IncomingTraffic · 05/06/2023 07:53

£1600 a month. 30 people. A £1.15million budget for paying them for 2 years. 30 people.

Of course the people of central Jarrow thought that sounded like something they’d love to get involved in when they knocked on doors and asked people on Jobseeker’s Allowance if they’d rather get £1600 a months for 2 years. Jobseekers plus LHA is nowhere near that in jarrow.

£1600 pm would provide a comfortable standard of living to many people, eg if it's per person and they're a two adult household unless they have multiple DC, or even for a single homeowner with no mortgage. It's more than many pensioners have. It's also more than NMW for full time work.

That pilot talks about studying the effect on mental health. I can see lots of potential positives if people use the time to study, undertake modestly priced hobbies or activities, or start a business without the pressure to bring in an income.

The main downside I can see is if people want to spend time undertaking expensive leisure activities/shopping, and find that the money doesn't go far if you are of a 'champagne tastes on a lemonade budget' mindset.

ZZpop · 05/06/2023 08:04

Those who cannot work will be worse off under UBI with severely disabled people ie the most vulnerable coming off the worst.

Original poster
porkpiesinthepark · 05/06/2023 08:05

Ok so the plus side could be that £1600 in Jarrow will get you way more than it would in the SE so people won't have to move out of their hometowns unless they want to. More wealth distribution. More people living outside of the main areas of industry starting businesses and studying thanks to UBI.
The downside would be a lack of incentive to work, as mentioned by PP. I'm a firm believer that people want to work generally but if something doesn't happen to make childcare more available / cheaper then will people won't.
I also have a fear that UBI is the preparation for mass unemployment and that women will be expected to be the ones to give up their jobs, stay home and get UBI to leave more jobs out there for the men.

OP posts:
Original poster
porkpiesinthepark · 05/06/2023 08:07

Just for reference I earn £1,450 as a full time mental health worker so they would have to raise wages if UBI was set at 1,600

OP posts:
110APiccadilly · 05/06/2023 08:13

porkpiesinthepark · 04/06/2023 10:23

@Theunamedcat you would have to get your shopping delivered, there would be no option to go into an actual grocery shop.

And when the shopping delivery AI had done a completely unsuitable substitution, say, follow on milk instead of formula, and you can't get into a shop to get any formula, and the AI at the customer service centre says, "This item was replaced from our acceptable list of substitutes. To repeat your order, press 1," what do you do then?

I'm sure you'll say that the AI will be good enough that this will never happen, but frankly I don't believe that.

Original poster
porkpiesinthepark · 05/06/2023 08:14

@110APiccadilly I don't think it will become good enough, no, I think we won't have a choice

OP posts:
IncomingTraffic · 05/06/2023 08:15

£1600 for a single person in jarrow is definitely going to be comfortable. Jarrow is an extremely cheap place to live.

Although if everyone got £1600 as a starting point (which would cost something approaching half of the current uk GDP in itself), then it certainly would not be extremely cheap to live anywhere in the country.

Unless you decide to do away with capitalism and go with the planned economy thing instead. Because there are no national examples where that hasn’t turned out to be utopia.

Beezknees · 05/06/2023 08:17

BarbaraofSeville · 05/06/2023 08:02

£1600 pm would provide a comfortable standard of living to many people, eg if it's per person and they're a two adult household unless they have multiple DC, or even for a single homeowner with no mortgage. It's more than many pensioners have. It's also more than NMW for full time work.

That pilot talks about studying the effect on mental health. I can see lots of potential positives if people use the time to study, undertake modestly priced hobbies or activities, or start a business without the pressure to bring in an income.

The main downside I can see is if people want to spend time undertaking expensive leisure activities/shopping, and find that the money doesn't go far if you are of a 'champagne tastes on a lemonade budget' mindset.

Show quote history

It would be terrible for single parents with more than one child though and could mean a lot of women forced to stay in abusive relationships.

SunnyEgg · 05/06/2023 08:18

I’m not sure what the trial is testing for but if it’s temporary it’ll be more a boost to current lifestyle than showing long term change

Would cheaper towns be where people live if they prefer not to work, how does that pan out with social behaviour - good or bad?

Would people quit work

Write2023 · 05/06/2023 08:20

Hyperinflation will make money redundant in a few hundred years resources will be the bartering tool of the future.

OneFrenchEgg · 05/06/2023 08:21

I'm guessing the pilot is with people not working and replaced other benefits? I couldn't tell when I read it yesterday.

HighlandCowbag · 05/06/2023 08:21

Ive literally just done an exam on this! As well as private vs state education, it's like MN knows my course.

I started the UBI topic think what a load of bollocks, get a load of 'Lazy Joes' who won't work while the rest of us graft to pay for them. However, the main benefit I can see is that companies will be forced to improve labour conditions in order to recruit staff. Which can never be a bad thing. As well as that, if we worry about reciprocity (ie people who don't work but benefit from society chipping in), then we should also worry about other free loaders who benefit from unpaid labour. This includes men who have domestic work done for them by women, people who benefit from volunteering but never volunteer themselves, the millions of ours of unpaid care that happens that saves society money and the 'cheap' labour like domiciliary care society benefits enormously from.

Freshfoods · 05/06/2023 09:39

I hadn't realized it was only 30 people. That's not nearly enough to gather useful data. I thought it was everyone in those areas. The article says that no-one should have to choose between heating and eating, but it looks like very many people will have to continue doing just that.
How disappointing. Naively, I thought it might be the beginning of a fairer society!