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Original poster

Do you find this offensive?

659 replies

Meeting · 25/05/2023 12:55

The Theatre Royal Stratford East is putting on a show and have blocked out 2 dates as "Blackout" nights where they encourage (but I don't think plan to enforce) that only black people may attend these performances.

I saw them discussing it on Piers Morgan and neither of the guests advocating for it were able to convince me that this type of segregation was at all beneficial.

Does anybody think this is a good idea? Personally I think segregation based on skin colour has no place in society, no matter who benefits from it. But I'm interested to hear from others who might away it differently?

OP posts:
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8
Kanaloa · 26/05/2023 08:49

Simonjt · 26/05/2023 06:06

We’re a mixed race couple, I often go to Sikh only or South Asian only events, they’re great as I know I won’t be subjected to racism, I won’t be mocked for speaking Urdu, I won’t be subjected to stupid questions or asked by multiple people if I eat curry everyday. My husband doesn’t attend, as he realises that him being white doesn’t override the rights of others who require a safe place to be themselves.

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Also, in this case the hypothetical white spouse wouldn’t even have to override anyone else. They could attend with their spouse on more than 20 other nights!

ancientgran · 26/05/2023 09:45

DeathByReadyMeals · 25/05/2023 21:47

I do understand where you’re coming from, but I think potentially your awareness of other people would be different if you were overwhelmingly in the minority. To use sex as an example again, I personally would feel a
bit uncomfortable as the only female audience member watching a play featuring violence against women. That could just be a difference in personal opinion - you might genuinely not be put off by that!

I’ve also seen other people on this thread mention a Q&A session after the show, which is obviously more audience-interactive than your usual theatre experience, and it must be freeing to be able to speak openly without the normal #NotAll couching people so often have to do. Done a quick google and not been able to find out much about the Q&A though, so happy to be corrected if that’s wrong.

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I think the Q&A does make a big difference.

Honestly I wouldn't be bothered about being in a majority male audience watching a play about violence against women. I would if it was porn but in all honesty I'm not likely to be doing that as it wouldn't interest me.

MasterBeth · 26/05/2023 10:20

White people can be the victims of racism too, as can any race.

They could be, but in a majority white society, they rarely are. And, by being asked to abstain from two nights of a theatrical performance by representatives of a marginalised group, they aren't here.

TeaKlaxon · 26/05/2023 10:36

Nameschanging · 26/05/2023 03:22

Because horrific things have been done by looking at the colour of someones skin. I don't believe perpetuating making assumptions about someone (including their ancestry, experiences with racism systematic or otherwise, culture and potential trauma) by the appearance of the colour of their skin is very clever. After all, assumptions by the appearance of someones skin is and has been the entire problem in history.

Who's to say 'what black' is appropriate to attend this?

There was some iffy comments from a member telling another member whom is gypsy (her own words) that they pass for white. I mean for fucks sake. This is entirely the problem. I'm not Romany and I find that offensive as fuck just to read, and that it invalidates her own experiences.

Horrific racial acts rind my gears - whatever race it's against.
The horrors acted against black people upset me greatly, make me angry, and to be honest, fucking disgusted with the human race. There are simply no words, or perhaps, not enough for it. There's some white people in the world having it pretty hard in some parts of the world right now, because of the appearance of their skin, too. Is their experience different to how you would experience racism as a biracial person? Absolutely. I don't believe the answer is to gather white victims of racism together and segregate others. In fact, there's communities enough who in their own words would prefer to see otherwise.

There absolutely is racist segregation against whites going on, in some parts of the world, as result of history. It is a thing.

Is this theatre that? Absolutely not. It's pretty offensive to me though, and not clever in my view. I absolutely respect people who are black may or may not feel differently. In fairness though, you are not white, being told you are essentially not welcome. You cannot speak from the perspective of a white person on this, no more than I can speak from the perspective of a black person on this topic. And to be quite frank, I've been told more than enough that as white person I can not speak about racism because I can't possibly have experienced any form of it.

Again though, we're all talking about skin colour, as though it's the only thing that binds us as groups, to others. We need to find a way forward - I don't believe this type of event will help racism.

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But the point is that in this country, white people do not experience systemic racism. No white person is going to be followed by security in a shop, or denied a job or housing because of the colour of their skin.

And it is up to those who do experience systemic racism to determine how they want to engage with that.

If they choose to engage through public education and enlightenment, bringing white people into the fold and sharing their experiences - great. If they choose to campaign, and protest and lobby for change - great. If they choose to engage within their communities to make sense of their experiences, to discuss, to shape, to strategise - great.

I don't think white people get to tell people of colour that how they engage with systemic racism is the wrong way. That they can or should only engage in particular ways.

Original poster
Meeting · 26/05/2023 10:42

MasterBeth · 26/05/2023 10:20

White people can be the victims of racism too, as can any race.

They could be, but in a majority white society, they rarely are. And, by being asked to abstain from two nights of a theatrical performance by representatives of a marginalised group, they aren't here.

Nobody in this country should have to abstain from anything because of the colour of their skin.

There is no excuse for it at all.

OP posts:
Original poster
Meeting · 26/05/2023 10:44

There was some iffy comments from a member telling another member whom is gypsy (her own words) that they pass for white. I mean for fucks sake. This is entirely the problem. I'm not Romany and I find that offensive as fuck just to read, and that it invalidates her own experiences.

Thank you @Nameschanging I was horrified by that person's comment and shocked that the poster tried to double down on it.

OP posts:
TeaKlaxon · 26/05/2023 10:49

Meeting · 26/05/2023 10:42

Nobody in this country should have to abstain from anything because of the colour of their skin.

There is no excuse for it at all.

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Of course there's an 'excuse' for it.

And it is that the colour of our skin is not some irrelevant factor. It is something that shapes our experience of the world we live in.

So there will be times when people with shared experiences want to be part of a community, to discuss issues or engage with issues as a community. That is entirely reasonable.

ancientgran · 26/05/2023 12:11

Meeting · 26/05/2023 10:44

There was some iffy comments from a member telling another member whom is gypsy (her own words) that they pass for white. I mean for fucks sake. This is entirely the problem. I'm not Romany and I find that offensive as fuck just to read, and that it invalidates her own experiences.

Thank you @Nameschanging I was horrified by that person's comment and shocked that the poster tried to double down on it.

It was a shocking thing to say and I did a sharp intake of breath when I read it. My first thought was I wonder what David Baddiel would say as I've read that he says Jews are the only white people who get racist abuse and my immediate thought was "Gypsies, travellers" as I think they get a shocking amount of racist abuse.

I have to confess I haven't read his book so if it has been misreported mea culpa.

Summerfun2023 · 26/05/2023 12:51

White people can be the victims of racism too, as can any race.

No

Refrosty · 26/05/2023 13:00

Meeting · 26/05/2023 10:42

Nobody in this country should have to abstain from anything because of the colour of their skin.

There is no excuse for it at all.

Show quote history

You are not being excluded, you are being asked to allow some black people a space for ONE NIGHT. You know, since the topic of the production is about a people who suffered, and still suffer, due to the blackness of their skin. Maybe you should try to be a bit more sensitive about it than "there is no excuse for it at all!" You are saying 'excuses', as if there is some fault at play here. How dare people want to be around people who share the same skin that caused so much suffering through history.

No, no excuse for it at all according to you.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz I really appreciate your words.

Summerfun2023 · 26/05/2023 13:10

Did you know that there are areas in England that tell estate agents to not sell to a specific group of people. My partner found this out from a friend who bought and sold houses. He said I will have to go and buy it and then when we move in he will play reggae music.

Refrosty · 26/05/2023 13:24

Summerfun2023 · 26/05/2023 13:10

Did you know that there are areas in England that tell estate agents to not sell to a specific group of people. My partner found this out from a friend who bought and sold houses. He said I will have to go and buy it and then when we move in he will play reggae music.

Haha! I'll donate a steel pan to your cause 😁

Seasonofthewitch83 · 26/05/2023 13:30

I mean, you have sort of proved the point about why this even needs to be a thing.

A play about race issues and you are kicking off and making it about you, which is what pretty much every conversation is with race.

White people love to minimise and derail back to them.

You should use this moment to pause, reflect, and think about the benefits.

We are still not an equal society.

Grendalsmum · 26/05/2023 14:36

Open question to everyone who has a problem with this performance.

If it was a play centering on the lived experiences of lesbians, or travellers, or victims of domestic violence, or war veterans or any other minority group you can think of - and the organisers requested the general public stay away for one night out of the whole run to give the people who have actually experienced the issues the writers were discussing a chance to talk about them in private - would you still be offended? Or is it only people of colour who don't get to ask for a space for themselves?

MasterBeth · 26/05/2023 15:15

Meeting · 26/05/2023 10:42

Nobody in this country should have to abstain from anything because of the colour of their skin.

There is no excuse for it at all.

Show quote history

And yet I am very happy, as a white person, to abstain from this performance in order to support people of colour who are telling me they could feel uncomfortable with my presence.

Why is your comfort more important than their comfort?

LadyKenya · 26/05/2023 15:26

Refrosty · 25/05/2023 21:35

Okay I'm black and it's interesting reading this thread. The point i'd make in defense of this night is; it's not about you.

What I mean is, trying to gather black folk together is not necessarily about excluding you.
Truth is, many black people are usually very happy to share their arts and creative spaces with white people. We want you to partake, participate and enjoy. Means it's more likely to be a commercial success too tbh.

But what about our relationship with us? To those who are against this, don't you care about the fact that within our community, there are divisions, hurt, love and a lot of healing that we need to do with each other? This play is not even about us, it's about the African American experience. Let me just be truthful with you all. My cousin and I (both British Caribbeans, so slave descendants, and probably have slave master blood too) watched 12 Years a Slave with a majority white audience in London. We didn't think much of going there and watching it with whoever. After that film, we were all up in our emotions. We didn't know where to look and how/if people were looking at us with pity or something. I felt so exposed. We basically hurried to the car and burst out all our thoughts and emotions. My cousin cried, I was angry, yadda yadda ya. We had each other. We didn't blame anyone there, I'm sure they felt angry and upset just like us. We just needed a moment to grieve and be angry for that man who needed a white man to save him from white men. Don't get me started on the Lupita stuff, that was so wild I don't think we processed it in any depth. Anyway, to exit that cinema building without feeling so self-conscious would have been nice. I will never watch a film like it in public again.

I understand exactly what you are saying about how you felt leaving the cinema. I felt the same when I went to see the film Selma, attended by a majority white audience. I am of course glad that people went to see the film, and see the horrors that black people faced in America, if they were not already aware. But yes, I did feel uncomfortable in my feelings.

Original poster
Meeting · 26/05/2023 17:23

Grendalsmum · 26/05/2023 14:36

Open question to everyone who has a problem with this performance.

If it was a play centering on the lived experiences of lesbians, or travellers, or victims of domestic violence, or war veterans or any other minority group you can think of - and the organisers requested the general public stay away for one night out of the whole run to give the people who have actually experienced the issues the writers were discussing a chance to talk about them in private - would you still be offended? Or is it only people of colour who don't get to ask for a space for themselves?

I'll answer for myself, not on behalf of others

I'm a gypsy and I highly doubt there'll be a play about the struggles my race have faced any time soon. If there was, I wouldn't want a night like you describe. I'd want as wide a variety of people possible to watch it.

OP posts:
Grendalsmum · 26/05/2023 18:02

@Meeting So you can't think of a circumstance where a group might want to restrict the discussion to individuals who have actually experienced the issues they are talking about?

ALongHardWinter · 26/05/2023 18:13

Imagine if it was the other way round,and only white people could attend? There would be an uproar.

DanceMonster · 26/05/2023 18:39

ALongHardWinter · 26/05/2023 18:13

Imagine if it was the other way round,and only white people could attend? There would be an uproar.

There’s no hope for those who can’t see why the two scenarios are different

Simonjt · 26/05/2023 18:47

ALongHardWinter · 26/05/2023 18:13

Imagine if it was the other way round,and only white people could attend? There would be an uproar.

For how many years have all white people (not certain groups) suffered systemic racism?

Timesawastin · 26/05/2023 19:34

SunnySaturdayMorning · 25/05/2023 12:56

Of course it’s offensive. It’s excluding every other race.

No it isn't, they are quite clear on that. But you jumped to the conclusion, for some reason. Hmm.

AtchinTan · 26/05/2023 19:42

Back in time, I was there when many Romanitchel (British Rom) refused free tickets to a play called ‘Live Like Pigs’ about British ‘Gypsies’ forced into brick, unless no Gaudja (other than actors) were in the audience.

As non-British Rom, I and three others from our vitsia took them and went to an open performance, because we didn’t see it as being about us, but our related neighbours, and thought we only had superficial skin in the game, and tbh because we’d never been to a theatre and were intrigued and it was free.

I can’t tell you what a big mistake it was. The Romanitchel were so right to refuse.
We spent the performance shocked to our boots and part of a spectacle to be watched by the Gaudja as to how we reacted to the show. No particular nastiness just curiosity.
My lot dressed traditionally, had horses and lived in Vardo’s so were well used to just ignoring the Gaudja gaze, or staring it into turning away, but that night was SO horrible.

I’m way older now and in education. Last month I and others got offered free tickets to ‘Time of The Gypsies’ for International Romani Day, I laughed and said no thanks unless we could watch it without Gaudja there, and a definite no to the discussion panel after!

BTW for the terminally ignorant many Rom don't pass for white, we come in many shades even within the same families.