Boys and men

[FinallyTimeToSleep]

I have two boys. DS1 is 11 and has always been a kind of 'alpha male' type - wants big muscles! massively sporty, naturally loves all traditionally 'male' pursuits. His younger brother is a bit the opposite. He is v gentle, likes to keep fit but not sporty, into art and music. I love them both for who they are. They r great kids (in my v bias mum opinion!)

Anyway, DS1 has become increasingly frustrated at school because the girls are being given preferential treatment when it comes to sport. Head of PE is a great woman, a feminist and strongly believes in girls doing football etc.. I'm all for that. She has v good intent. But it now seems to be at the expense of the boys. Girls allowed on the AstroTurf at break, not the boys. Girls football taken to local matches, not the boys. Girls hockey promoted at lunchtime, no opportunity for the boys. Boys do netball and girls do basketball. DS loves basketball so this hasn't gone down well! DS and his friends even organised a little protest one lunch time and made plaquards to say 'give boys a chance too' or something like that!

I've had lots of discussions with DS about how it's great that girls do football etc.. and there should be equal opportunities for both sexes, but he feels boys aren't given a chance. He loves sport but only sees the girls getting opportunities. He has started talking about Andrew Tate with admiration. I've told him what Andrew Tate stands for, what he's done etc.. and DS seems to understand, but his friends talk about him and DS only picks up what they say and what he sees as good stuff.

Now, maybe things have to sway this way (girls having more opportunity than boys) in society for things to eventually even out and reach equality status. But I'm worried this kind of action at school level leads to men and boys later feeling disillusioned and seeking male role models who perpetuate sexism (like Andrew Tate) in order to try and find their way. DS says half the girls don't even like football and just sit on the AstroTurf at lunch chatting (he knows some girls do enjoy the football but can't see why they can't all play together), whereas he and his friends actually want to play. He's really fed up.

This is not really a question of 'how do I handle it all' as we r finding a way. But more a statement for discussion on what's happening at school level and in wider society to men and boys. I don't want my son or his friends feeling pushed aside as woman used to be, and searching for role models in the wrong places.

It would be worth mentioning the Andrew tate admiration of several pupils to the head of year. Maybe they can so some sort of assembly and. Rasiw awareness.

I would also speak to the head of PE. You seem reasonable with well reasoned questions to raise but the boys competition shouldn't be Compromised

Girls allowed on the AstroTurf at break, not the boys. Girls football taken to local matches, not the boys. Girls hockey promoted at lunchtime, no opportunity for the boys.

You need to take this up with the teacher first, then possibly the Head. There could possibly be valid reasons as to why the boys are seemingly excluded, ie the boys fall under another teacher who is off sick etc.

I don’t agree with things have to sway to girls having more opportunities than girls thing, that is just as bad as boys having more opportunity. Is high school sport not mixed? Both my DC are in primary school and DS has a girl in his Saturday football team (side note, she’s very good!).

The andrew tate thing is worrying, what a horrible excuse for a human being that scumbag is.

All your concerns are perfectly valid and I know you’re not asking for solutions but speaking to the school should help. It will also show DS how to stand up for things in the right way, kudos to him for the mini protest too.

Boys moaning that girls are getting what boys/men have had for years 😂

Thanks. I'll think about raising the Andrew Tate thing. He's in Yr6 and with only a few weeks now til the end of term I wasn't sure whether to bother to raise it with school, it maybe I should.

I spoke briefly to pe head (also son's form teacher) at parents evening. She was of the opinion 'think you can do better, then crack on..' she didn't say it in those words, but I think she felt a bit annoyed I was raising it, and I didn't want to push it as she's a good teacher and has good intent for the girls. I don't think I'm socially skilled enough to raise it again in a way that doesn't offend her. Again, with only a few weeks til the end of term i've just been thinking that hopefully next year at his secondary school he'll start getting the opportunities he doesn't have now (he also does quite a bit of sport outside school, so in his own case, he does have opportunity for what he enjoys). It's more that I feel generally this might be a wider issue than just his school.

I don't see this as "boys moaning" though. Equality is what we need. Not girls just getting would boys and men had before!
OP you raise some very interesting points. Please do speak to the school.

Well I think this might be the PE heads opinion. But two wrongs don't make a right. It was wrong when girls did not have the opportunity that boys had. But it isn't right to now deny boys the opportunity girls have. It's should be equal opportunity for all, surely.

Yep, the experience your son is having is basically what girls have had for many many years.
I fought with her school to call it Boys football and girls football rather than football and girls football.
Perhaps rather than make your son turn to the likes of Andrew Tate this experience could make him more empathetic to what women and girls have to put up with?

Except he's a child. I've taught him about how women have been treated historically. I've talked to him about how things were in my childhood (I hate to play netball not basketball for example, just like he's experiencing now!) But from his experience, boys are the ones not getting the opportunities. I agree woman have been wronged in the past, and many still are. But now denying men and boys opportunities is not the way forward. We need equality surely. Not just the attitude of 'ha ha see how it feels' - especially as my son has not contributed to historical sexism. It's not his fault that in the past girls were not treated well.

*had to play... not hate to play (damn typos!)

Sometimes equality IS giving certain groups that have traditionally been marginalised more opportunities but I take your point that as a child he doesn’t necessarily see that.

Don't try to persuade. Raise it bluntly, with no get out.

'Why aren't boys allowed to use the astro turf at break?'
When will the boys get to do basketball?
Why aren't the boys teams getting into local competitions?

There might be straightforward reasons, there might not.

Sometimes equality IS giving certain groups that have traditionally been marginalised more opportunities

I'm not sure I agree with this..

I have 2 boys and 2 girls. All sporty. Great that the girls are given so many chances! Amazing even. But its shouldn't be a boy or girl thing. They should have it for both. Feminism isn't about women being at the top or getting or taking what men have always had but about equal opportunities.

I agree

If bd more concerned that he’s hanging out with boys that admire Andrew Tate. Wtf? They’re in year 6.

The dickheads at secondary school started the Tate admiration in year 8/9, but any of the lads with a brain think he’s a twat.

Tell him to identify as a girl at break times and go right on and use the astroturf. That'll send them into a right spiral.

🤣🤣

Yes it's a good learning experience for him. Given that women and girls have had generations of social pressure to shut up and be happy with the crumbs they are given by society a tiny peek into that world won't kill him.

God forbid women have access to what men had. Ruth Bader Ginsburg gave a fascinating interview when she recalled being asked how many women it would be fair to have as Supreme Court justices. She would answer, it will be fair when it's all of them. Obviously this provoked strong reactions. The unfairness of the idea that it should be all women! The audacity! Yet as Ginsburg pointed out, no one cared and moaned for the long period it was all men it was merely accepted by society. And doesn't that say it all. It's okay for men to do it, but not women. God forbid they have equity, let alone power.

Point out to your son that he will walk the streets at night alone when he's at uni. Hes unlikely to have to worry about his drinks being spiked or being injected with a date rape drug. Hes less likely to be beaten or killed by his partner. He will likely to have easier access to a career, it will be unaffected by maternity pay. Or his pension for that matter. He probably won't be the one to go part time to facilitate parenting. Hes unlikely to should the brunt of the domestic drudgery .He won't be objectified and treated as a lesser being until his looks start to fade, where upon he will become invisible.

Then thank the PE teacher for the tiny window into inequity that she has given your son the chance to glimpse. He may even grow as a person by understanding his male privilege.

On this occasion you can stand up for sisterhood instead of trying to undo what these girls have been given access to. Men and boys learning to live without things is not the massive injustice you think it is.

Do you actually mean ‘equity’ rather than equality?

There’s a cartoon of people of different heights trying to look over a wall that expresses this quite well. Equality is where everyone gets the same size box to stand on and the short people still can’t see over the wall. Equity is where everyone gets a box big enough to see over the wall, but the boxes are all different sizes.

My DSs' primary has a similar situation regarding football at lunchtime. Traditionally the boys tended to set up football games on the astro turf and were allowed to play there. The girls steered well clear because the boys tended to get rowdy and when a girls' game did pop up, they would constantly be interrupted by the boys deliberately disrupting their game. The head ended up designating two days a week each to keep them separate after complaints from the girls' parents. Eventually, however, the boys were banned altogether, because their games almost always descended into fights, which started to bleed into the classrooms. The girls were allowed to continue because their games didn't end up with them pummeling each other. Now we are in your situation, where only the girls have access to the astro turf, because they proved that they could be trusted to behave and every time they give the boys a chance, they let themselves down. I will say though, that we're very lucky that our school offers male and female options for every sport offered and both get to compete in events.

OP, if it were a male teacher who was deliberately excluding girls, he would be labelled sexist, toxic and not fit to be a teacher. There is NO excuse for this behaviour from that teacher.

She is absolutely toxic and bullying and is not fit to teach children.

I would make an official complaint to the school, citing sexism and bullying. You need to be clear that the complaint is official and that you require a response from the school. Social media is your friend here, as is your local paper.

Discrimination, bullying and sexist behaviour from a teacher cannot be allowed.

If you handle this in the right way, you can ruin that teachers career.

Thanks calm..

We've spent quite a bit of time exploring the Andrew Tate stuff! It's quite interesting (and scary) how Andrew Tate tries to target young ones. I've watched a few YouTube clips of his with my son to try and give a balanced opinion and understand what he and his friends might find appealing. His clips really do spin a certain story that appeals to boys, especially boys like DS1 who love all the muscles and money and fast cars stuff (DS2 would never find Andrew Tate appealing in anyway, as he's just not really interested in muscles or money, fast cars etc..!)

We've had lots of discussions and are keeping channels of communication open. He's not allowed to watch Andrew Tate on YouTube without me also sitting with him to give balance. But I want to know he he breaks that rule, need him to feel able to talk about this stuff. We've talked a lot about Andre Tate and DS1 now has the message this is not a good man and understands the reasons. DS1s friends are good kids, but you can't stop children in a wider class from talking, and you can't parent other people's kids, and nor should you. How each parent parents is up to them and some of his friends are allowed to watch Andrew Tate. That's up to them, and thier parents to make that decision, and I can't judge. We all do this parenting thing differently. I can only choose how to parent my own child, and hopefully raise enough discussions with him to help him make sensible and careful choices. But yes, Andrew Tate could be a whole other thread!

Good for you for talking to your son about Andrew Tate and that he has come to his own conclusion.
I have two sons who are now in their 20s and really feel for parents of teens and preteens nowadays.

Sounds like a good school handling things well :)