Boys and men

[FinallyTimeToSleep]

I have two boys. DS1 is 11 and has always been a kind of 'alpha male' type - wants big muscles! massively sporty, naturally loves all traditionally 'male' pursuits. His younger brother is a bit the opposite. He is v gentle, likes to keep fit but not sporty, into art and music. I love them both for who they are. They r great kids (in my v bias mum opinion!)

Anyway, DS1 has become increasingly frustrated at school because the girls are being given preferential treatment when it comes to sport. Head of PE is a great woman, a feminist and strongly believes in girls doing football etc.. I'm all for that. She has v good intent. But it now seems to be at the expense of the boys. Girls allowed on the AstroTurf at break, not the boys. Girls football taken to local matches, not the boys. Girls hockey promoted at lunchtime, no opportunity for the boys. Boys do netball and girls do basketball. DS loves basketball so this hasn't gone down well! DS and his friends even organised a little protest one lunch time and made plaquards to say 'give boys a chance too' or something like that!

I've had lots of discussions with DS about how it's great that girls do football etc.. and there should be equal opportunities for both sexes, but he feels boys aren't given a chance. He loves sport but only sees the girls getting opportunities. He has started talking about Andrew Tate with admiration. I've told him what Andrew Tate stands for, what he's done etc.. and DS seems to understand, but his friends talk about him and DS only picks up what they say and what he sees as good stuff.

Now, maybe things have to sway this way (girls having more opportunity than boys) in society for things to eventually even out and reach equality status. But I'm worried this kind of action at school level leads to men and boys later feeling disillusioned and seeking male role models who perpetuate sexism (like Andrew Tate) in order to try and find their way. DS says half the girls don't even like football and just sit on the AstroTurf at lunch chatting (he knows some girls do enjoy the football but can't see why they can't all play together), whereas he and his friends actually want to play. He's really fed up.

This is not really a question of 'how do I handle it all' as we r finding a way. But more a statement for discussion on what's happening at school level and in wider society to men and boys. I don't want my son or his friends feeling pushed aside as woman used to be, and searching for role models in the wrong places.

But the OP's son hasn't had this for years. He doesn't feel the individual benefit from the centuries of benefits that different boys and men have had before him.

Teenagers aren't good at thinking structurally instead of individually. That's what the education system should teach them. The issue isn't really about the finer points of who gets to use astroturf when; it's how to teach teenagers to think in terms of historical and societal context. Once you do that, the realisation that discrimination against privileged groups isn't a thing should follow.

Though given the amount of hissy fits I see from adults complaining about bias against men, or private schools, or white Christians, our society isn't doing a great job of this generally.

I can understand why your son is frustrated. The teacher is being unfair however your son is going to have to learn ways to circumnavigate the unfairness perhaps organise a game in the main playground to make a point? He will also face recruitment discrimination when older. Unfortunately Andrew Tate is taking advantage of the reverse discrimination to rile up followers... very scary!

Hmm I'm going to take the perception of a group of 11 year olds who support Andrew Tate with a pinch of salt. AT has convinced a whole host of men and boys that they are being persecuted which just really isn't true.

Feel free to set up a meeting with the school to discuss this, but I imagine the reality is a lot more nuanced that your son is leading you to believe.

His clips really do spin a certain story that appeals to boys, especially boys like DS1 who love all the muscles and money and fast cars stuff

Hmmm. I’m finding some of your comments around Andrew Tate a little odd. At age 11, he shouldn’t be watching Andrew Tate videos whether you’re there to give balance or not. Just have the conversations, he doesn’t need to watch them.

You almost seem happy that your son is a ‘cool kid’ who likes cars and muscles.

This whole thread just seems a bit ‘off’ to me.

With parks and playgrounds I think it's well documented that boys take over and their games dominate. Maybe staking out the astroturf for the girls in a response/solution for this?

I am sure there is more nuance.

However, I get the school newsletter each week which highlights all the girls sporting matches etc.. and I can see a lack of photos of the boys on sporting trips, because there haven't been any. Furthermore, as my son is v sporty and has never been asked to go to any matches or events with the school, I also know that the boys are not having these opportunities.

Lack of equal (or equitable) opportunity at school is one of the reasons I have now enrolled DS in a local basketball team outside school. He loves basketball and was sad not to get to do it like the girls. He can now do it, and loves his new team. But we r lucky to be able to afford these extra curricular opportunities. Several of the boys spouting Andrew Tate at school don't have the opportunity for extra curricular activities, so you can see how these boys may become further disillusioned and why the likes of Tate become so appealing to them.

He's not necessarily cool! (Probably a bit cooler than I was at school! But he's not one of the cool kids in the class!) But I love each of my kids for who they are. I can't stop DS1 from loving sport (actually I encourage that as I like him to keep healthy!) and wanting muscles one day and enjoying fast cars. It's up to him, its what he likes! but it is my job to guide him.

I watched the videos so I could see for myself what Andre Tate was saying. As I have said, he's not allowed to watch them on his own. Watching them with me is a v rare event, and has only happened when I've been wanting to discuss with my son and understand what might be being said at school. He's reached his own conclusion about Tate now, after our discussions. But Tate and others like him are a reality. Shutting down all discussions or being overly strict is not the path I want to take as I don't think it helps (but get others have a different approach).

Exactly. The boot is now on the other foot and boys don't like it any more than the girls did. I don't have much sympathy tbh.

I thunk its good the boys are doing netball, it's always been seen as a girls sport so I don't think the school are wrong there.

Is it possible there is some funding the school are using for girls sports? I know there was in my area at one point for girls to fo stem activities which I thought was great. Girls are still a long way off being valued as equal and I think need more opportunities like this

Something definitely ‘off’ here.

But did you have sympathy for the girls? I feel for anyone who is not given fair access to opportunity. In the past this has meant I have felt for the girls. I am one! I was sad not to do certain sports as a kid. But now I can see my son going through this, I feel for him too. All children, regardless of gender, should be given the same opportunities. How on Earth is it fair to punish this young generation of boys because of what their parents and grandparents did?

I think you just need to raide it with the school. Make an appointment with the head teacher as there may be more to it than you realise. For example, the boys may be temporarily banned from the astro turf because they messed about/fought too much and therefore the girls get everyday on it now. Or something similar, that your ds isn't aware of. In terms of the sports competitiions, again, could be a reason that not enough wanted to join or even a lack of other schools putting forward teams so not enough for competition. But in any case its worth mentioning to the school how this looks. Also, about the basketball, perhaps they switch mid term and girls then do netball and boys basketball which I think happens in alot of schools.
And raise the andrew tate thing. would be good for them to know about this and hopefully do a bit of awareness around it for the year 6 children.

What is 'off'?

I mean your son is just using his eyes. He's not wrong and telling him he needs to step aside to give marginalised groups a chance due to their historical lack of privilege or whatever is the reason he's opening up to Andrew Tate in the first place

Pushing boys and men out of society isn't going to magically fix the patriarchy, they're just going to go recreate the old power structures somewhere else without any kind of female influence and then where will we be. Can't believe PP think it's acceptable to deny boys the ability to play on the field at breaktimes

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and replies. Quite interesting thread. Thanks.

I'm disappearing for a bit, but will be back later! (just saying, because in the past people have said 'i notice the OP has disappeared' or whatever, so just highlighting I am coming back at some point and not disappearing for any sinister reasons!!)

Agree..

You do need to find out more about the rationale for these choices, given this is a primary school and so these are still young children.

Whilst I get the arguments about showing men the other side of life and that achieving equality may need positive action, let's remember that we are talking about young children here and we need to be careful that we are not condoning punishing them for the sins of their forefathers. The Head of PE maybe a great feminist, but lets not discount the fact that she is exerting influence over a group of males because she has the power to do so, regardless of what is in their best interests and how they may have been involved in the oppression of women.

My view is that if you want to create meaningful change, all stick and no carrot is not an effective approach. If you are just creating a situation where young boys feel excluded from opportunities you are just making it easier for them to be influenced by misogynists like Andrew Tate who are telling them that their approach is a way out of feeling powerless and marginalised. The fact that these young children are being influenced by him is deeply concerning and should be prompting a response from the school.

We, as women, might want to just make men feel our pain and reverse the situations, that won't get us to a genuinely more equal society, it is more complex than that.

Nope, we don't need 'equality' we need equity. And that's what this is.

Is the astro turf the only place they can play football or is there a playground as well. There could be so so many reasons why this is currently the case:

The boys were misbehaving, so it's not the the girls are allowed it, it's that the boys aren't because of their behaviour

Was it first come first served but the boys kept taking over and so now the girls have been allowed it for awhile to redress the balance

Is it that they can play football anywhere but the girls have had to have the astro turf reserved for them because whereever they were playing the boys would come in and take over

was it the boys last term and the girls this term?

As for the sporting competitions, is it that the girls team are better than the boys team and the boys team aren't even getting into the competition

Is it that the competitions rely on parental support and the girls parents have been more active in supporting

Is it that there aren't as many competitions for boys teams? Often for example boys play in a football team outside of school so they might not have the time for school competitions as well and so there isn't the appetite for sports competitions for them within school

Is it that the girls are turning up to the extra practices and the boys didn't

is it that there is so much additional provision for boys sports outside of the school and not for girls sports so the school are trying to redress the balance

Is it that the boys are not doing as well academically as the girls and so the school needs them to focus on their school work whilst the girls have more availability for team sports

There are so many variables here and it feels like you are just jumping to the conclusion it's not fair without knowing all of the answers. On the surface yes it feels unfair, but it wouldn't suprise me if the girls needing a space reserved because otherwise the boys take over is part of the issue.

@Middlelanehogger In what ways are men being pushed out of society?

J think you need to go into school op and ask, not hint. I suspect that you are not being told the whole story. Not saying that you're lying but children are notoriously unreliable witnesses, especially when they think they are being hard done by. I suspect that there is a more nuanced reason as to why this is/your son has got the wrong end of the stick. Children tend not to have access to all of the information available and, like adults, have filled in the gaps.

My son has as like this about the football field. He thought he never got to go/it was always the girls/older kids etc when I asked the school what the rules were surrounding this I got a very different story. Originally the kids were allowed to play football but the boys dominated the playground and refused to let the girls play/hit the girls with the ball/disrupted the girls game. So the new rule was they could only play on the astro turf and the playground was for everyone else, but again the older boys dominated it/wouldn't let the girls play/wouldn't let the younger kids play/disrupted the girls games etc. So now the rule is they can only play of the astro turf one day a week, the other years get a day. They have two breaks a day so the boys can play in either the first break or second and then they have to make room for the girls the next break. So essentially the boys have gone from having the privilege of playing football everywhere, everyday regardless of anyone else, to having the same right to a time slot as everyone else and playing then. The boys are not happy but I pointed out he isn't getting less than the girls, he just isn't getting more.

As for the sports issue, could it be that the boys don't have the teachers trained enough in those sports? I know when I was at school we girls weren't able to play football till I was 13 because we simply didn't have a teacher to do it. We also couldn't do competition as there wasn't enough school teams to do it.

This vindictive attitude towards primary aged children is nasty and counter-productive.

This.

The whole thread is off. Its just a thinly disguised warning off of women who are attempting to support girls.
The message couldn't be clearer: You just try giving girls opportunities to equalise their access to areas dominated by boys, and we'll all flock to a misogynist and become an even greater threat to women, and it'll be your own faults. MRA all over it.
We've even had one of them jumping on to advise the OP to ruin the teachers career.

I'm assuming if a group of boys admire Andrew Tate, that might be the reason they are being limited playing sport as their attitude on the pitch might not be very admirable.