Is this normal behaviour for a toddler? Safeguarding concern

[SiIIy]

Forgive me. I haven’t dealt with toddlers in a long time and they never had grandparents so I am not sure how normal this is.

My friend has a just turned three year old DD. Her DDs father is useless but he has a lovely mother who helps my friend a lot with childcare. She takes her granddaughter seemingly every other night or so and frequently on weekends.

A few times I have met up with my friend after work and we have gone to pick up her DD from nursery. The last few times when my friend mentions she is taking DD to her grandmothers, her DD starts screaming and crying saying things like “Mummy, please don’t take me there”, “I don’t like grandmas”, “Please, please, please let me stay with you mummy”. It genuinely breaks my heart. Last time she seemed hysterical which is totally out of character - whenever I have seen her at home with my friend she is such a happy thing.

Is it normal for a toddler to get this upset about going to stay at grandmas? I was genuinely worried it could be a safeguarding issue but on the other hand maybe she just loves her mum and doesn’t like spending so much time away from her. I think the grandmother is lovely but I have met her partner who gave me creepy vibes (didn’t help he stank of weed).

(Before anyone mentions it - for what it is worth I think my friend relies on her MIL for childcare way too much. She just seems to really struggle being a mum for more than a couple of days in a row. But that is her business, not mine.)

Of the child had been happy going beforehand and it’s only a recent thing then I’d be concerned as to why the child was as upset.

can the child explain what’s making them sad?

Well, the last few times I asked my friend why she was so upset and she just shrugged her shoulders. About a week ago I was left in the car with her DD for about five minutes and tried to ask her why she didn’t like going to grandmas but she was too upset to answer. She just kept saying she didn’t want to go :(

I think it's pretty normal. I have a three year old and he regularly tells me he hates going to various places (like his grandparents) and has a tantrum when we have to leave to go there but he's always fine within a couple of minutes.

for what it is worth I think my friend relies on her MIL for childcare way too much. She just seems to really struggle being a mum for more than a couple of days in a row. But that is her business, not mine

Is this your real issue OP? If you didn't think the mum was reasonably recognising she needs some support and reaching out to a willing trusted person to provide this, would you be as concerned? Or do you think she should be spending more time with her child and that it's damaging to go to granny's so much?

The answer to whether it's a safeguarding concern is no, not necessarily, it could be expecially if there are other signs, but not necessarily in and of itself.

@mynameiscalypso Okay thank you. That is a relief. I’ve been feeling uncomfortable about it for a while.

It could be that she doesn’t want to be away from her mum and her home overnight so often.

She’s away from mum and home while at nursery and probably looks forward to going home and being with her parents, her toys, her familiar surroundings.

Not sure of what to advise. Are you and your friend close enough for you to discuss your concerns in a completely non judgmental way?

Is it possible your friend has post natal depression or is she just regretting becoming a parent or something else is happening at home and she is just trying to protect her daughter?

I don’t think this is a safeguarding concern in itself- it sounds like normal toddler behaviour- they can be super clingy to primary caregiver at that age. it does sound like toddler could do with a bit l more time with mum ☹️, but if mum’s doing her best it’s better she seeks support from another caring family member than struggles alone. It will be wonderful for her child in the long run to have a close bond with a GP. X

Thing is, it could be normal but if it was my child I would want to be sure it was just clingyness and not .. anything sinister

It would worry me and I'd want to get to the bottom of it. It could be something innocuous that is upsetting her, or it could be that abuse is occuring.

Might there be something in the grandmother' house that is frightening the child? As a small child, I did not like going to my paternal grandparents' house as I was scared of the gas masks in the cupboard under the stairs.

If your friend is struggling, is it worth contacting your local children's centre and speaking to a health visitor? They might be able to offer more support to you friend or potentially visit the grandparents house and make an assessment.

Op goodness please trust your instinct here.

Any safeguarding concern should be acted on - you say there is a man in the house who stinks of weed??? And is there despite not being related to the toddler and toddler is screaming despite partly living at this house.

If it was only screaming when Mom said that she was going to GM's house then I'd think it was just toddler clingy behaviour.

But the adult smelling of weed (not always meaning something sinister on its own) and the fact DD screamed and got upset when you asked her in private what was wrong does suggest something more sinister. It could be partner is abusing DD, could just be DD gets scared by a painting or something innocuous.

I'd try and have a private word with your friend first. Say you spoke to DD about Granny's (don't have to say you were asking directly what was wrong, just that you were causally talking) and she seemed distressed and you're concerned. If friend keeps being dismissive and DD continues to be distressed then consider reporting.

I was always shunted about between parents and grandparents as a child. I screamed and had tantrums because I hated it. I never really felt like I had a home, I was going between three houses.

Maybe the child just wants to be at their own home

Regardless of whether it's normal behaviour or not, the toddler is communicating a lot of distress. It could be as previous posters say that it's related to being separated from her mother. Is it a sporadic kind of agreement (i.e. decided on the day kind of thing)? Toddlers really quite like routine, so if she sees her Mum just after being separated all day at nursery and then is told that she's going to grandma's that might well result in an outpouring of emotion.

If you wanted to test the separation hypothesis you could offer to look after the child for one night and see whether it engenders a similar kind of distress. If it doesn't, then probably there's something specific at the grandmother's house that isn't great.

I think without knowing what happens when she actually does get to Grandma's you need to be careful you're not reading too much into this. She's probably fine once she's there and forgets about it. You said your friend struggles being a parent more than a couple of days in a row. Could that be why the DD reacts this way, because she's always being palmed off on grandma and doesn't get to see her mum as much?

It's a really difficult one, isn't it, because on the one hand we want to be calm and measured, reasonable people, not leaping to conclusions of abuse which is such an extreme possibility, but then imagining how dreadful we'd feel if it came out abuse was going on and we'd not acted, despite being suspicious. It's such a no-win in some ways, because you can't know the truth, and things like this do niggle in the mind.

Have you considered phoning a helpline OP, and having a candid chat with them? Maybe the NSPCC? I'm not sure who would be best to ring, maybe someone else here does. Not to submit an official report, but to talk through your concerns.

My god. No, it's not normal. She is communicating more than just upset and reluctance.
This happened with friends non verbal 4 year old whenever she was dropped off at her fathers. Turned out he was sexually abusing her.
I wouldn't take her back until I'd got to the bottom of it!!!

This is not normal, especially if she is happy to head off to nursery and say goodbye to mum every day.

It's very obvious that the child is frightened of something or that something is upsetting her at gran's.

You need to contact the safeguarding head at the nursery.

You should also contact the NSPCC.

The fact that the mother hasn't bothered questioning the child and simply shrugs about it is a huge problem. She's not the only useless parent this poor child has. Someone needs to start advocating for this child.

Agree with this. The child is trying to communicate something. Someone needs to take responsibility for understanding what that is. It may it may not be abuse. But abuse is more likely to occur in situations when the parent doesn't make protecting the child their top priority.

I also agree this is concerning. And your friends’ attitude when you talk with her about your concerns should also inform you. Could she be so overwhelmed by her own struggles with parenting that she might be in denial a wee bit?

Yes, I think it potentially is for two reasons

1. the child may be trying to tell the mum that something bad has happened. 3 year olds, even if they have good speech, don't have the ability or insight to be able to communicate it well.

2. the child is clearly very upset at the thought of going, yet mum doesn't seem to care. She's continuing to put her need for peace or childlessness above her child's need for her mum. This is worrying. What will it take for your friend to put her daughter's needs before her own?

I'd be saying something to friend along the lines of "she's so upset at the thought of grandma's, do you think something could have happened? Or do you think she maybe just needs a break from there for a bit? You must be devastated seeing her this upset".

But ultimately, and sadly, there's little you can do. Other than hope your friend wakes up and starts responding to her daughter.

100% this.

It just reminded me of cases I've read about where a child has been visiting a relative and then is returned to their abusive parent. They always react like that and it sends a shiver down my spine.
On the other hand toddlers can behave so dramatically over being given the wrong spoon or whatever! It's impossible to know for sure what's happening here. I'd try and keep an eye on things as best you can. Have you mentioned it to your friend?

Obviously every scenario is different but my three year old granddaughter is definitely more tearful staying with us than she used to be. She has stayed with us once a week since she was tiny. Sometimes she cries for Mummy and is quite inconsolable. Absolutely nothing has happened here ,we adore her and have fun.
If you are feeling doubtful I would be quizzing Mum a bit more . If my granddaughter was hysterical my daughter would be very bothered about it.