Is this normal behaviour for a toddler? Safeguarding concern

[SiIIy]

Forgive me. I haven’t dealt with toddlers in a long time and they never had grandparents so I am not sure how normal this is.

My friend has a just turned three year old DD. Her DDs father is useless but he has a lovely mother who helps my friend a lot with childcare. She takes her granddaughter seemingly every other night or so and frequently on weekends.

A few times I have met up with my friend after work and we have gone to pick up her DD from nursery. The last few times when my friend mentions she is taking DD to her grandmothers, her DD starts screaming and crying saying things like “Mummy, please don’t take me there”, “I don’t like grandmas”, “Please, please, please let me stay with you mummy”. It genuinely breaks my heart. Last time she seemed hysterical which is totally out of character - whenever I have seen her at home with my friend she is such a happy thing.

Is it normal for a toddler to get this upset about going to stay at grandmas? I was genuinely worried it could be a safeguarding issue but on the other hand maybe she just loves her mum and doesn’t like spending so much time away from her. I think the grandmother is lovely but I have met her partner who gave me creepy vibes (didn’t help he stank of weed).

(Before anyone mentions it - for what it is worth I think my friend relies on her MIL for childcare way too much. She just seems to really struggle being a mum for more than a couple of days in a row. But that is her business, not mine.)

This. I should imagine it's not the Grandma per se, but this man. If the Grandma puts him being there above the needs of her 3 year old granddaughter, I would have concerns yes.

Could you offer to take the little girl out to soft play/ petting zoo/ park whatever? If she’s happy to go with you that shows it’s not just separation from her mum. The child is clearly showing distress and trying to communicate this but will not have the language to describe why she doesn’t want to stay at grandma’s. I’d be concerned too.

Does GM have a new partner/ visitors when the DGC is there? It would worry me regardless and I would speak to my DM/DMIL if this was happening with my DC

Ignore me, just reread the post. I would absolutely say something to the friend, but offer to help with childcare if you can, don't judge her.

You actually don't seem like a nice friend. Your comment of your friend relying on her MIL and 'unable to be a mum for more than a few days' is awful. She is always a mum whether her child is with her or not. Something is untoward could be happening at the grandmothers or they could discipline differently, the child could be having separation anxiety. My child cried not to go to nursery at 3 and I'm pretty certain they weren't abusive towards her, she just wanted to stay with me. I think you need to tread carefully if you want to remain friends but if you are certain something is amiss then you could contact social services anonymously.

It's really difficult without knowing the full circumstances, to make a judgement. I think no matter how much you chat with your friend you'll never be able to get to the bottom of it. Normally in abusive situations you might expect to see other behavioural changes and not just tantrums (which are normal), such as increased bed wetting, withdrawal/suddenly seeking more attention, lashing out unexpectedly. There's loads of information about it on NSPCC Website.

It may not be the partner but that the mother feels overwhelmed in which case reporting it might put her in touch with family support.

The message is that if you're worried just report it. I don't think any harm would be done and if it's not considered significant it may not be followed up anyway. The good thing is that if school identifies issues later on there will already be a record.

Even if we assume the best case scenario that there's no abuse, at only a little older than your friends DD I was regularly palmed off to a an elderly neighbour when my single Mum had better things to do than be my parent (she was seeing a married Man, just to clarify she wasn't going to the supermarket or work).

No abuse, just a kindly old lady, but I am almost 40 now and I distinctly remember the absolute distress I felt, hysterical at being woken at the crack of dawn and carried / dragged there in my pyjamas, my Mum ignoring me absolutely begging her not to leave me.

My adult relationship with my Mum has never been close, largely because I can't forgive her for carrying on and leaving me anyway in such utter distress for something she didn't have to do.

(God only knows what the old neighbour made of it at the time).

Don't ignore your gut OP x

One of mine went to nursery for a couple of days and to grandparents for one day. They used to cry when told it was a grandparent day because they wanted to go to nursery instead, but didnt cry on leaving and enjoy the day when there and has a good longer term relationship with grandparents. Mine wasn’t as distressed as you’re describing, but I personally wouldn’t read a lot into it without any other information than you’ve given here. You’re clearly pretty judgemental about your friend’s coping skills, so it sounds a bit like you’re looking for things to be concerned about.

Toddlers are like this when they get dropped off for nursery, it's totally normal behaviour. That doesn't mean abuse isn't happening though and it is a slightly unusual set up.

My DD became really clingy for a few weeks when she had just turned 3. She had always loved going to grandparents and nursery but she started acting similar when going anywhere without me or DH. Once she was there she had a great time. It only lasted a few weeks then she was back to loving going again. It was just a stage she was going through.

Obviously it could be something more serious but I’d speak to your friend about your concerns rather than reporting them.

You are joking, right op?

I'd speak to your friend again. It could be that she relies so heavily on this arrangement for her own reasons that she's unwilling to take an interest in looking into anything that might potentially disrupt it. 3 year olds can get very upset (and I bet you anything this girl knows her mum can't deal with her, which will leave its own scars) but if you have a niggling doubt, I would keep asking questions.

I have to say that mine probably would be unsettled by me collecting them from nursery and then taking them directly to leave them somewhere else, but it’s not in itself a safeguarding issue or something to judge - did she need her mum to babysit because the two of you were going out together?

Is it just grandma at the house?

Does it really matter why? The fact is she doesn’t want to go to Grandmas so your friend needs to look after her own child more. Every other night and weekends is ridiculous. Why is she a part time mother?

I know someone whose parents looks after her children a similar amount because she has very severe depression. The grandparents help because they love their daughter and their grandchildren and want to support them. I wouldn’t describe her as a “part time mother”.

Hi OP, I don't fully understand some of the responses you've received. The biggest risk you've mentioned is Grandma's partner, who stinks of weed. He is mentioned as a passing oh-by-the-way aside. I'm wondering if this man might be a risk factor for this little girl? Does he live at the Grandma's house? Her reaction seems really extreme... My toddler loves his Nanny's grandparents and absolutely delights in going to see them. (The adoration is mutual.) If I ever got a hint of the kind of wildly upset behaviour you're describing, my kid would never go back again! Please connect with your friend somehow; I'm not sure what to suggest, though! If your gut is telling you the child needs to be listened to, someone needs to pay attention.

My two year old step son used to do this when he went back home to his mother and her new partner. Turned out the partner was being violent and my step son was witnessing it.

Could be or could not. But I'd rather be safe than sorry. Prevent than cure.

I'd look into this some more. It's slightly worrying.

I cannot believe how fucking stupid some people are being. no wonder we all sit watching the news and shaking our heads when some other little kiddie has been abused or beaten to death, whilst saying to ourselves surely someone should have listened to that child.

The absolute very least I would do is create and opportunity to go with friend and child to Grandmas while weed smoker was in the house and watch very carefully.

Of course it needs investigating and your friend does not sound up to it. Phone NSPCC for advice and talk it through.

OP@SiIIy I’ll summarise what you have said “I have met the grandma who is lovely but her partner gives me creepy vibes and stinks of weed”……..trust your instincts!!! Who in their right mind allows their kids to be looked after by someone whose partner is a drug user anyway??

My niece is about to turn 3 and whenever my brother says they are going to granny and grandad she will say she doesn't want to go, then once she's there they have a really hard time getting her to leave 😂 don't know the reasons why, just toddler awkwardness maybe.

Clearly the fact the little girl is getting so upset is concerning and really her mum should be putting thought into what is causing the upset.
No one here can know If there is anything sinister or ‘just’ separation anxiety. It is certainly a bit of a red flag though.

Could you do a Sarah’s law application for the mothers partner?

I guess it’s possible if the mum struggles with managing parenting that the little girls attachment is being affected, so she ia craving more time with mum and getting upset about leaving her to go to grannies.

Whatever is happening it’s clear the little girl is having a hard time and that needs looking in to. Can you talk to her mum more about it or ask some open questions to encourage her to talk about it?

The difference between this child and the ones some posters are talking about is that they know what happens 'once there' but OP doesn't know what happens to this child once there. Better to be the over-cautious person than to wish she did something when she had a chance.