Sorry posting for traffic need urgent EHCP help

[Annoyingnamechangerperson]

I have a tribunal tomorrow for a high school place.
Local authority viewpoint is that child has significant and severe learning difficulties however is academically very bright.
young person has ASD, ADHD, Sensory Processing disorder, severe speech delay, severe social and emotional delay (of child around 6 years old) however academically exceeding age related expectations.
Dont actually think anyone knows where to go.
Mainstream has been named as academically able however child is not safe to even walk down road without holding hands due to social / emotional age and impulsivity.
Has zero independence skills, can’t wash / clean self or make own drinks. Can’t even ask for help as doesn’t realise they need it.
Been told ‘too bright for SEN school’ however everyone in agreement (apart from LA) that child will not manage high school without coming to serious harm.
still has toileting accents (bladder / bowel)
Massive risk of bullying and manipulation

Can anyone offer any help as to how to argue that mainstream cannot meet needs?
It would involve teachers using picture cards and social stories etc, in every single lesson. Extra lesson time being allowed, every lesson, someone to provide assistance with toileting accidents and EHCP states that member of staff is required to support child for every single transition from arrival at school until home time. Child to have twice daily check ins to see how emotional state is as cannot grasp when they are upset / why.
EHCP reports small group of teaching staff needed. Assisting everywhere they go so from lesson to lesson and to the bathroom etc. Child wouldn’t be able to manage these transitions without support.

Can anyone point me in the direction of any policies, evidence anything that helps me to prove that it’s going to be impossible for a mainstream school to manage to this in place.
School also inadequate due to students having poorer outcomes there than in comparable schools.
Apologies if this makes no sense or is rushed I’m desperately looking for info and trying to bullet point so I don’t waffle.

Look up your local parent partnership services. They can help you for free. I would look at private sen schools and make a case for that if the LA don’t have anything suitable which they fund.

What placement have you asked for OP? Do you have supportive reports/witnesses? It's as much about showing that your choice is the only place that can meet needs as it is about showing that the LA choice is wrong for your child.

Would mainstream with 1-1 support not solve it or mainstream with ASD unit. Most mainstream have SEN type units within them so small groups and 1-1 staff at times.
I would be reluctant to go for SEN school as it doesn’t sound like it would be appropriate and its likely behaviour would deteriorate in that environment

I will look at private schools thank you. Everyone ( apart from LA who haven’t ever met child) have reported to the LA that child is too vulnerable for mainstream and will come to harm.
I do have lots of professional witnesses down for tribunal who support this view.
My initial request had been the nearest high school with an ASD unit however it’s out of county and was told no because it was out of county and if they did say yes they wouldn’t provide transport there which would make it impossible to get to with other children and work.
We live in an area where there are 2 mainstream schools within about 25 miles of us with autism units. (Both out of area as I live on the boarder)
Then only option left within county at that point was SEN school where socially and emotionally child would fit in and make friends (for the first time in their life) but may be academically held back.
Or mainstream. The mainstream schools are likely to agree they can meet needs but not actually meet needs at which point the placement will break down and we will be looking for another school.

Current school reports that level of support identified doesn’t match the EHCP band and named school is quite known for agreeing they can meet needs and failing.
Usually when the child crashes they call EHCP review and ask for alternative placements.

Try not to worry too much the school are going to have to detail precisely how they are going to support your child from the minute he lands on the premises. The school's case will quickly fall apart if they can't show they have precise plans for every instance. You should give various examples and ask the school to explain what would happen in this specific instance, so say there is a cover supervisor in class rather than a teacher, if the fire alarm went, what happens on sports day are the premises secure, how they will encourage and build relationships with his peers if he is constantly attached to a supporting adult. Let the panel see that the school's plans aren't robust enough and your child won't manage. Independent specialist schools are most likely the better and probably only option if you are near the East Midlands I can dm you some possibilities.

Thanks so much that’s brilliant I will make sure I ask all of those questions.
he’s managed to get out of his primary school several times past reception and thankfully been brought back by passers by. So my I don’t doubt for a second he will get out of high school.
The LA and school telling me he won’t isn’t reassuring at all. Primary schools are much more secure than high schools and he’s managed it more than once.

I worry as he’s older people are less likely to see him as vulnerable and bring him back to safety which leaves him to wander with no danger awareness and a fixation on his belief that he can breath under water.
Thank you so much unfortunately not from that area.

Could you ask for the SEN school on a part time basis, say 3 days a week, to fulfill the Social and Emotional side, but the Local Authority provide 1:1 tuition for academic rigour and challenge on the other 2 days a week?

Split placements can work well with children with a 'spiky profile'.

If that's not an option then possibly use Safeguarding as way to stop the LA blundering ahead with a mainstream placement? If your child would be socially or emptionally at risk in a mainstream setting then that's a Safeguarding issue and shouldn't be allowed to happen.

There is no way you can force a child with those needs into mainstream school if his social skills are that of a 6 year old then at least at sen school he has a chance at making friends, at sen school they teach independence skills aswell as academic my brother went to sen school and took actual gcses is now working earning 40k a year with a wife and two kids! My middle daughter is at sen school has alot of what you have listed above and currently 7 years mentally 3. Mainstream was torture for her we let it go on for 3 weeks only. Mainstream is not equipt at all I also have a *high functioning asd/adhd child in secondary and she is REALLY struggling emotionally and navigating the social side to the point she's self harming yet excelling academically! Try sendiass they may be able to help with the court side I'm sorry your having to go through this xx

Be careful with SENDIASS, some are good but too many repeat the LA’s unlawful policies.

The independent professional reports will form the basis of you evidencing MS isn’t appropriate. Are you appealing B&F as well as I? EHCPs are often written in a way that supports the school the LA have named in I. They are often vague and woolly, which DC’s sounds like it is. If B&F are written correctly with all needs and provision detailed, specified and quantified then they will demonstrate MS is inappropriate.

Out of area schools can be named in an EHCP and transport can be provided.

Thank you I genuinely appreciate the help so much. It’s so hard to navigate it all.

All the LA are focused on are his academic abilities but my view is that he needs to be safe first and foremost.

I feel like once he’s gained some independence and self help skills the education can come secondary to that.
He still has toileting accidents at school bladder and bowel and I can imagine him being tortured in high school for that. He doesn’t even tell people when he’s had one he just sits there smelling.
Thankfully he is in the loveliest primary school now with a class who are lovely with him but that’s not going to be the same at high school.

If he is bright he’s not going to suddenly lose his intelligence by going to an SEN school and I’m probably in the wrong but academia doesn’t feel like the priority to me right now he’s 11 years old he has the rest of his life to be academic. He needs to be able to function before any of that.
But I’m only his mum what could I possible know 😭

Yes I’m appealing BF and I (I think) I feel like I’m muddling my way through so I might have that wrong. I spoke to sendias but she was saying no SEN school would take him as he was intelligent I ended up leaving the meeting without any hope to be honest. It ended with her saying home schooling is always an option.

I spoke to sendias but she was saying no SEN school would take him as he was intelligent I ended up leaving the meeting without any hope to be honest. It ended with her saying home schooling is always an option.

No, don’t EHE! If there isn’t a suitable school there is EOTAS which means the LA retain responsibility.

It’s nonsense that DC who are academically able can’t attend SS. Some DC attending SS sit GCSEs, A levels and go on to university. SS catering for academically able pupils aren’t as common, but they do exist, and if there isn’t one suitable there is EOTAS. And, as you say, there is much more to DS’s needs than academics.

“severe learning difficulties however is academically very bright” this isn’t possible. Severe learning difficulties means an IQ of 70 or less. This isn’t academically very bright.

I went through something similar, visited the school that the LA said could meet needs and the school were eager to have him. They showed me round, we got to the second floor and I just said "what are you going to do to ensure nobody touches him or annoys him at any given time because if they do and he's up here the source of his annoyance or the nearest person to him will be put over that bannister and it's quite a drop" and just like that the school withdrew their offer. Schools don't always get the full picture and they don't always consider the realities and they almost never have the resources to cope with every eventuality. Ask the school the questions that will make the panel question their suitability.

greylad sorry I don’t know how to bold your name.
that’s what is written on the first line of his EHCP.
it sounds ridiculous doesn’t it

… and therefore mainstream will not be suitable, is what I meant to add!

Learning difficulties and learning disability aren’t the same thing. Having an IQ below 70 is a learning disability.

Just to add dd has an IQ of 162 and went to specialist school so SENDIASS have advised you wrongly. Her school was also out of County and they funded transport as well. My son went to a different specialist school, again in a different County to the one where we live and the one where dd's school was and again they funded transport.

Not quite. An IQ of 70 or less is known as moderate learning difficulties while the child is under 18. Once they are 18 and a further assessment of daily living is carried out, that along with the IQ of 70 or less is then reclassified as a learning disability. That’s in the NHS. Obviously other countries use different definitions; for example you will see learning disability in children in the USA.

My son was dx with moderate learning difficulties when he was dx alongside all the other co morbids but he did secure 8 GCSEs and 3 level 3 Btechs. His dx at the time was most likely because he wasn't able to speak and couldn't be directed. It's surprisingly difficult to get a dx removed though. I think I managed it when he was seventeen but he'd had it on his SSEN/EHCP since he was just three.

We also have specific learning difficulties such as dyslexia, dyscalculia etc. That is classed as specific to one domain of learning.

(Some practitioners state that you can’t have an SpLD if you also have MLD but this is under debate (and not relevant to OP).)

The fact remains that OP’s child cannot be classed as academically bright if they have also been diagnosed with severe learning difficulties. I’d be asking your EP to explain that one further @Annoyingnamechangerperson!

We had a very similar situation. It is really tough. Absolutely not legal though for the LA to say no out of county or refuse transport if it is the closest school that can meet need - so I would hold on to that and focus on showing why your school can meet need and the mainstreams can’t (their responses to the La consultations are likely to be v helpful there if you can get hold of them in time). Good luck! My daughter is now in specialist y7 and thriving.

No. Children under 18 can have a diagnosis of learning disability. A learning disability is a specific diagnosis in its own right. It is an IQ below 70, and classified as mild, moderate, severe or profound. A learning difficulty is separate and while it may be a disability as per the Equality Act it is separate to the diagnosis of a learning disability. It may be a general learning difficulty or a specific learning difficulty such as dyslexia. Obviously people may have both.

Mencap explain they aren’t the same thing here. You can also see the classifications for mild, moderate, severe and profound learning disabilities here on the NICE website. Mild is an IQ of 50-69. Moderate 35-49. Severe 20-34. Profound <20.

The fact remains that OP’s child cannot be classed as academically bright if they have also been diagnosed with severe learning difficulties

Yes, DC can. Learning difficulties aren’t about IQ.

If his learning difficulties have a significant impact on his ability to learn, it doesn't matter how bright he is, he needs to be in an environment that supports him socially and to care for himself. It's called learning to learn. The academic learning can't happen if he's wandering the streets and needs toilet changing. There is no point in being good at maths if you abscond from lessons because you are overwhelmed/ need the toilet/ hungry etc and can't say.