Friend's DD took photos of my DD in underwear

[lovemummyfairy]

First time post but long term lurker.

Background - DH's family live 2.5hrs away in the town in which he grew up. His best friend since school still lives in the same town. Whenever we visit DH's family we try to fit in a catch up/visit with his friend. Friend (let's call him John) is married to 'Jane' and they have one DD (9) 'Emma'. We have 3 primary aged DC, youngest is DD (6). In the last couple of years our visits to them have increased in length and frequency, partly because our children are older (DH's family tended to visit us more when DC were babies and toddlers as easier for us due to distance, then Covid obviously stopped visits for a while) and Jane and I now organise the visits as DH and his friend would leave it all to the last minute and then it wasn't always possible to see them.
Our visits have increased from just going round to their house for a few hours, to days out, overnight visits and more recently 2 night stay. My DD loves going to visit Emma - loves being friends with an older girl, loves her bedroom which is like Aladdin's cave to my DD. My oldest DC doesn't like to visit, mostly because he's an older boy, finds Emma annoying etc. Middle DC isn't fussed either way. DH, while he likes to see his friend, would prefer shorter visits as he would rather spend more time with his family.
Jane and John are very generous and welcoming hosts. DH and I have sensed that the intensity of the visits has increased mostly due to Jane's insistence which we think is because of her DD. Emma is a very bright and confident child but, by Jane's own admission, she is hard work, 'in your face' and intense. It seems that she has difficulty making or maintaining any friendships. Jane says that playdates have always been a disaster so she now avoids having any. So we think Jane likes having us visit because we have similar age kids who mostly get on well with Emma.
Unfortunately when we visited recently an incident occurred which really concerned me. Oldest DC came running downstairs to tell us that Emma was taking photos on her ipad of DD in her underwear - for a dare. I rushed upstairs, as did John, to deal with it. John spoke to Emma while I dealt with my DD .My DD looked terrified, thinking she was in big trouble for what she did. Emma started crying about something else to distract John from the main problem, something we have noticed she has done before. Obviously we checked that the photos were deleted and John and Jane reassured us that Emma couldn't send them to anyone as she can only message the two of them, doesn't have social media etc, but they didn't seem overly concerned that their child had been encouraging another child to strip off and take pictures of her.
Since then, oldest DC has told us about other things that Emma says or does while they are there, which are inappropriate. I don't think that I dealt with the situation as well as I could have, it all happened so quickly and looking back I wonder if I could have done anything differently.
Also feeling awkward about future visits as we don't want our DC, especially DD, to spend so much time with Emma,but don't want to affect the friendship we have with John and Jane. So, more of WWYD rather than AIBU?

It may not be as sinister as it sounds. Kids pick up a lot of this stuff at school. And as someone said it could also be Emma is unaware of boundaries. But you can’t be sure. If you want to stay in contact limit your visits to lunch at a park or somewhere open and visible. Catch up for an hour or so where the kids can play while supervised. Hopefully your DH understands it’s not fair or safe to subject your kids to this. Maybe DH could just catch up with his friend on his own sometimes. The friends will hopefully understand and respect that you won’t stay with them anymore.

It's isn't about whether it is inherently sinister.

It's about once photos are taken they are virtually impossible to delete it and photos can end up anywhere, either purposefully when theres a failing out or accidentally.

However ok this incident may be and however deleted these photos may be, you have a child who still hasn't got to grips with that fundamental fact and who I wouldn’t trust not to take photos again

I wouldn’t put my child in that situation.

Why is the only person in both families that seems to have an ounce of sense your oldest child?

i definitely remember taking clothes off and being silly with friends at that age. It was harmless. I wasn’t being abused. There’s a conversation to be had about boundaries with the children but don’t rush to assume sexual abuse.

You are wrong. This would definitely be a concern.

Bloody hell, some kids really do have pathetic simpering adults as parents, who prefer to post lengthy posts on online chat forums about their suspicions re what their children are enduring at the hands of others rather than actually doing something about it

@Freshstarts22 I am not wrong. A concern about a child is not the same as unacceptable sexual behaviour from an adult or an older child. I cannot see that this meets the threshold for inappropriate sexual behaviour. What do you think should happen to Emma? That’s the big question. How does reporting this incident to the LADO get her help? It’s pure punishment for a child with needs. By the way, quite a few SEN DC with autism do not understand appropriate behaviour in this way. Are you all for reporting them
too? Are you assuming Emma has no SEN? I think she does. Therefore a different approach is needed.

Children who are being or have been sexually abused can display harmful sexual behaviour to their peers. My instinct is that this is not that. It is probably the case that Emma has SEN, is picking up on comments in school and is failing to see that such behaviour is inappropriate. Kids that age in school are talking about taking photos in their underwear and making sexualised comments such as "lick my bum". She very easily could have been exposed to it in school rather than at home.
Now the children who started the comments are most definitely being exposed to inappropriate material or are being abused but lots of children who repeat the comments are simply just repeating them.

I have a nephew with SEN and he is starting to make regular comments about smelling and licking bums, he hears it in school and while a neurotypical child can understand such comments are inappropriate and dont really repeat them, he doesnt and will make them in public.
To protect your children OP I would avoid overnight contact with them and meet where you can supervise the children.

LADO is irrelevant in this situation. That is who you report an adult to.
I don’t think anything should happen to Emma. I’m not talking about punishments. I’m talking about safeguarding her to ensure she herself is not at risk.
In fact, I would be more concerned about a child with SEN as they are statistically more vulnerable to abuse.

Your job is to protect your child, not to prioritise your friendship.

Keep your DC away from this girl. Any visits should be at cafes or parks, not back to the house. Your DH can go to the pub with John- but phase out contact with the wider family.

I think this is very disturbing behaviour, and I would be deeply concerned about my own children and about Emma.

I would not feel comfortable allowing my children to play alone with Emma again. My first priority would be to protect my kids from harm, and it does appear that Emma has behaved inappropriately several times.

Might be SEN might not. Might be signs of child abuse might not. Might just be a child who likes to shock. But other kids don’t want to be around her and that is slightly concerning. She took your young child upstairs got her to undress and took pictures of her. That is horrific.

I would continue to reassure my kids they had done nothing wrong, that older kids were silly sometimes and keep on reiterating that their body is private and that they can say no. And if they don’t feel comfortable come and ask you.

I would also talk to Jane. Tell her you are really concerned about Emma and would like to help but that you also need to acknowledge that what Emma did means that there will have to be distance between her and your kids and no more playing alone together. Suggest Jane raises her concerns with her GP or the school. Schools are good at picking up odd behaviour, and there might be a group of kids doing the lick yer bum talk at the moment.

Also be aware that if your daughter mentions this at school or to friends you may get SS knocking on your door. I’ve seen the comments that we all posed in our knickers when we were kids, but we are all more knowledgeable about sexual abuse these days and safeguarding professionals are more on the alert to potential abuse.

Emma is 9 years old. And her behaviour at best is inappropriate. At the very least she needs urgent assessment and help.

We wouldn’t be visiting again. Meet up at a venue if you want to keep seeing the family.

@Diorama1 Thats my view too.

Who on earth do posters think the child should be reported to? Why not phrase it about getting help? It’s possible to help the parents of Emma without the ridiculous hyperbole.

Re the "lick his arse" comment. "Lick" in this context can also mean to beat or thrash, both in the sense of hitting with a stick or similar, and winning at a game. That said, it's probably a bit old-fashioned sounding now, so possibly the girl has heard from an older relative or family friend?

Peeing in front of others, is this family one of those "free and open" i.e. no boundaries, where bathroom doors are always unlocked or open even when people are using them? It does sound as if this girl has few or no boundaries or sense of what is appropriate or not. I would not be comfortable with that, and no matter how friendly you are with the parents, you cannot be 100% certain that they are not suspect in all this.

If I were you I would be cutting contact with this family completely, plus making a call to SS to check on them, telling them exactly what you have put here. Something clearly is amiss.

A child of 9 behaving this way would make me wonder what she is experiencing herself and is a red flag in childcare

It’s not reporting the child to get her into trouble. It’s reporting the incident to social services to safeguard that child in case she is a victim. It’s an indicator of SA. It could be nothing, but you can not ignore these things.

And if she's being sexually abused in her own home? OP should help the parents?

It's concerning how naive some people are when it comes to child protection. Her behaviour has been inappropriate on a number of occasions and it is certainly not remotely normal for a 9 year old to take semi naked photos of other minors on a fucking play date.

It is not about getting the child in trouble, it's about protecting them from harm ffs. Why would it enter the head of a primary school child to want someone else to strip off for photos? Something is amiss somewhere and it needs looking at.

I don't think you have said where the dare came from, but dares are usually carried out within a very quick time frame usually instantly so I would be very worried the dare was from either the other children present or the parents

Don't go there ever again

@lovemummyfairy this is exactly why children are supposed to keep iPads, phones etc downstairs.

I would be explaining the risks to Jane of letting her have an iPad in her bedroom, especially as she gets older. And ensuring that all contact in future is downstairs where you can see what is going on.

This is a child who is 9. She’s not an adult. Yes. It’s inappropriate behaviour but urge the parents to see a professional who might be able to help. What would reporting actually achieve for a child?

Many local authorities have services for children showing signs of sexually harmful behaviour who can give professional advice to parents, help look at safe care plans, assess safeguarding risk ie if the child in question has been exposed to inappropriate material or been abused themselves. At this age it’s a question of support rather than punishment. Social work do much, much more than take children into care and would be a good option for exploring what’s happening in this situation.

When I was that age I had a friend just like this. She'd do things like pee when I was in the room or walk around with her arse hanging out until her mum told her off. It was nothing sinister, just attention seeking.
I'd be very wary about the pictures, especially as they age and get more freedom online.

Give them licks or lick his arse sounds like beat rather than actually lick.

"It was nothing sinister, just attention seeking."

As far as you know.

Did Emma dare your youngest to have the pictures taken? Or did someone else dare Emma to take the pictures?

@Jellycatspyjamas
So you would report the parents to Social Services? They might have time to look at this: maybe not. I still think it’s more of an SEN matter.

@BillyNoM8s Why have you leapt to thinking there is abuse at home? Do you not understand that some DC do not behave as others do and do not understand boundaries. I’m not remotely naive but you have no idea what could be causing this or indeed where to get help from. What are you suggesting that would protect the child? What evidence is there she needs protection? Do you think Dc who act this way are to be the subject of investigation? Many with autism can behave in similar ways. Do you think they should be removed from their parents and ???? Then what?

In my view it’s something an educational psychologist should look at. That’s the first step. Possibly a child psychiatrist. It’s about supporting parents not accusing them of sex abuse. Some views expressed here are troubling and very accusatory without knowledge.