Friend's DD took photos of my DD in underwear

[lovemummyfairy]

First time post but long term lurker.

Background - DH's family live 2.5hrs away in the town in which he grew up. His best friend since school still lives in the same town. Whenever we visit DH's family we try to fit in a catch up/visit with his friend. Friend (let's call him John) is married to 'Jane' and they have one DD (9) 'Emma'. We have 3 primary aged DC, youngest is DD (6). In the last couple of years our visits to them have increased in length and frequency, partly because our children are older (DH's family tended to visit us more when DC were babies and toddlers as easier for us due to distance, then Covid obviously stopped visits for a while) and Jane and I now organise the visits as DH and his friend would leave it all to the last minute and then it wasn't always possible to see them.
Our visits have increased from just going round to their house for a few hours, to days out, overnight visits and more recently 2 night stay. My DD loves going to visit Emma - loves being friends with an older girl, loves her bedroom which is like Aladdin's cave to my DD. My oldest DC doesn't like to visit, mostly because he's an older boy, finds Emma annoying etc. Middle DC isn't fussed either way. DH, while he likes to see his friend, would prefer shorter visits as he would rather spend more time with his family.
Jane and John are very generous and welcoming hosts. DH and I have sensed that the intensity of the visits has increased mostly due to Jane's insistence which we think is because of her DD. Emma is a very bright and confident child but, by Jane's own admission, she is hard work, 'in your face' and intense. It seems that she has difficulty making or maintaining any friendships. Jane says that playdates have always been a disaster so she now avoids having any. So we think Jane likes having us visit because we have similar age kids who mostly get on well with Emma.
Unfortunately when we visited recently an incident occurred which really concerned me. Oldest DC came running downstairs to tell us that Emma was taking photos on her ipad of DD in her underwear - for a dare. I rushed upstairs, as did John, to deal with it. John spoke to Emma while I dealt with my DD .My DD looked terrified, thinking she was in big trouble for what she did. Emma started crying about something else to distract John from the main problem, something we have noticed she has done before. Obviously we checked that the photos were deleted and John and Jane reassured us that Emma couldn't send them to anyone as she can only message the two of them, doesn't have social media etc, but they didn't seem overly concerned that their child had been encouraging another child to strip off and take pictures of her.
Since then, oldest DC has told us about other things that Emma says or does while they are there, which are inappropriate. I don't think that I dealt with the situation as well as I could have, it all happened so quickly and looking back I wonder if I could have done anything differently.
Also feeling awkward about future visits as we don't want our DC, especially DD, to spend so much time with Emma,but don't want to affect the friendship we have with John and Jane. So, more of WWYD rather than AIBU?

Shes a little girl of 9 who asked your even littler 6 year old to take her clothes off and took photos of her. This thread is weird.

@pillsthrillsandbellyache Unfortunately not all DC behave as you would wish them to or would expect. It’s not that unusual to find children think unacceptable behaviour is fun because another child says it is.

@lovemummyfairy Now you have said about the toilet incident, I think Emma is not taking on board normal boundaries. As she doesn’t seem to have friends, I would think your friends are worried. Emma seems very relaxed about bodies and doesn’t seem to understand privacy. Are you friendly enough with her parents to have a chat about this and maybe suggest they seek some help. No child wants to be without friends and Emma will tun out of options if no one wants to spend time with her.

Do you think she has SEN? I know it’s a stretch to think this but she’s not behaving in a way most 9 year old girls do. When I worked in education I did see the Ed Psych reports on DC exhibiting troubling behaviour. Not everything about their work is “education”. I wonder if your friends could talk to the SENDCO at school or engage a private Ed psych? They might be able to suggest strategies to help. With secondary school not far away, I would try and get help. Sadly she might get into trouble at school and I would want to head that off.

Your eldest has twice reported (with urgency) behaviour that is suspect. I would take the time to calmly chat to them one to one to see if they have anything else to say about it.

@TizerorFizz thank you for your reply. Yes, I think it is absolutely to do with lack of awareness of boundaries. And I have queried SEN, which I think Jane was alluding to as well. As far as I know she has no particular problems at school that have been picked up on. I think it will be difficult for me to address this with Jane atm as we're usually only in contact around school holidays and potential meet ups....not something I could casually mention in a WhatsApp message.
I think they are worried about her and there have been some discussions about secondary school and how she might manage there re friendships etc.

This.

Where has Emma been shown to do this. Taking photos is one thing, stripping to your underwear to do so is not right. Plus unspecified inappropriate behaviour. I'd even be contemplating an anonymous report to nspcc.

Your child needs to see that you do not have any contact with someone who takes pictures of children in their underwear ever. I would have my concerns and worries about why Emma did this, I would stress that to her parents and I would keep my child well away. She needs to see that this is unacceptable and you are protecting her

Well said!

@lovemummyfairy
I can see there are difficulties arising from what has happened. It is up to Emma’s parents to try and help her. Ostracizing the family won’t really work. Certainly doesn’t help Emma. She does need help as she does have behavioural issues. This is something an Ed Psych could look at. Are you in a position to ring Jane with some friendly advice? Say how you have noticed Emma is finding interacting with other DC difficult and does inappropriate things. Would she consider getting advice from a professional? You really cannot throw accusations about but saying you are concerned is, hopefully, supportive. Plus suggest SENDCO. I’m amazed school won’t have noticed. At the very least Emma’s parents need strategies to help. I fully recognise this will be a hard conversation.

After your initial post and further updates, why would you even think of going back to visit. Very strange, I must say!

@flutterbyebaby Because they are friends? Does everyone drop friends in a crisis? Or try and find a way to help or at least visit in a neutral location? We need to be able to treat children as children. Not assume they are acting as adults. This child does have a problem but she’s not the first or the last to act inappropriately. Obviously she needs help but do people really drop their friends immediately? True friends surely try and help.

I think it's tricky given the ages. I think the parents should be more concerned about their dds behaviour than they are and that would be the main red flag for me. I wouldn't have my kids in their house or unsupervised with their dd again. If you genuinely have no concerns for their daughter or about the parents then I'd leave it for them to deal with but I wouldn't be putting my children in that situation again especially since they're younger than Emma. I'd be distancing myself or meeting Jane 1-1 while your dh and the kids are elsewhere seeing his family. Could be sen, could be something untoward could be Emma trying to process something she's witnessing in school or online etc but either way it's concerning and your first responsibility is to your kids.

If I was you I would - as a friend to the mum - be honest and say that yes you think as an observer and as she has asked - the girl should be assessed for autism or SEN/- as there are clear differences in her behaviour and those of most children her age

I have a neurodiverse child - and this is the line of questioning in the assessment- they will ask questions like does your child appear odd to others - do they fail to follow normal social conventions in speech and action / in groups with other children etc

This child needs help. That help however does not need to come from you and your family - her own familiy need to get the support she needs through professional guidance.

of course on mumsnet there is always a harsh 'never speak to these people again' - which is not how most people interact. But I think you can gently pull away to a level you are happy with.

Another child (close relative) made me feel very uncomfortable about his behaviour with my daughter who is about 3 yrs younger. We still meet up now and again, but on trips / parks where they won't be alone. His behaviour may of been innocent, but I had a very uncomfortable feeling and my daughter is my priority.

I'd be worried that she's being sexually abused and would feel obliged to report to SS and the child's school.

Victims of CSA of often display inappropriate behaviours with their peers.

If it's not the case and there is another cause of the behaviours, school and SS are also best placed to advise on resources.

Don't ignore it.

OP, in summary:

• Emma is displaying inappropriate behaviour
• Other parents don't want their kids around Emma
• Potentially Emma didn't spend a lot of time around external people during the height of the pandemic
• Jane and John have seemed unconcerned in front of you when together
• Jane has expressed concern to you privately
• John has been the one dealing with the problem

I would be reporting to social services. When you look at it dispassionately, there's a risk that John is abusing Emma. Hopefully, he's not. But what if John or another family member were abusing her? Surely the risk of it being true and stopping it is worth the risk of upsetting people if it's not true?

This could be a cry for help from Emma and Jane. Don't ignore it. It's not worth it.

Any responsible parent who puts their child first would understand that based on what you've observed, you have to report. Just in case. You're not reporting because you're malicious; you're reporting because you have Emma's best interests at heart.

My concern would be with my own kids, although theres's something going on for Emma clearly, but what you can do about it I'm not sure.

I think you need to show your own DC that what happened wasn't appropriate, by putting in some boundaries of your own about how you interact with this family. If this means your friendship suffers as a side effect, then I'd be very willing to make that a second priority to modelling to your DC what we do when people make us feel uncomfortable ie

We tell our parents, our parents believe us and deal with it, and we don't get put in the same position again.

I think you are overlooking the sexualised and coercive nature of her behaviour. This isn't just a child struggling with boundaries, this is extremely worrying and raises concerns over safeguarding.
Regardless of adult friendships, there is a duty to protect children from inappropriate, sexual situations. I would not be visiting again and would be contacting social services.

I honestly think you have a duty to report this to children’s services. Yes, it might cost you a friendship but you have a duty to protect that child. Hopefully it’s nothing, but the behaviour you described is a red flag for SA. I’m really not being dramatic. Anybody trained in child protection could tell you the same. Ask NSPCC for anonymous advice first if you want.

OP. Do not report anything. I’m not overlooking anything. This is a child who is 9. She’s not an adult. Yes. It’s inappropriate behaviour but urge the parents to see a professional who might be able to help. What would reporting actually achieve for a child? Probably nothing. Not many years ago parents took pix of Dc wearing only bikini bottoms. No one thought they shouldn’t. The pictures didn’t get published. There’s no evidence against the parents. Try talking to them about getting help.

I have just looked up the relevant info about safeguarding. I cannot see that this is illegal or would be of sufficient concern to warrant an investigation. There are thresholds that have to be met.

I know some will think I’m being unfair as the older girl is still young but, honestly, I think I’d have thought “What if this happened when my daughter was older eg a teenager?” Might the photo have been shared on social media etc?” Or “If she says things like this now, what might she say when she’s older and has heard about more things?” So I’d be trying to stop any friendship from developing between them when they’re a bit older tbh. You can still be friends with her folks but, again, I’d start distancing myself a bit tbh. Maybe agreeing to catch up with them alone (without the kids) over lunch infrequently. But I wouldn’t be going round there to stay or whatever anymore.

In terms of the ‘lick my arse’ comment, that is the stuff that goes around school at that age.

My 8/9 year old came home asking about sexual positions which had been mentioned in class. I’ve also heard boys in her class talking about ’shagging’.

I wouldn’t feel comfortable letting them play alone again. Maybe meet for a meal/day out next time?!

What would it achieve?

Well, if the girl is being abused, it would hopefully reveal who was abusing her and take her out of harm's way.

The concern is not just her behaviour; it's what is actually causing the behaviour. That's why calling in the professionals is potentially doing her a massive favour.

Your friendship with the adults is not as important as the safety of your DC.

Either you contact the friendship entirely on the basis of the adults only having contact or you let the friendship drop. There really aren't half measures on this

I would never have my child near her again. No way would I stay friendly with parents who allow this. And eventually they will be paying a huge price for this lack of parenting