Am I now "that" parent?

[Reservoir13]

Last weekend my 11 daughter participated in a gymnastics competition. In her age group, there is only one other -12 year team mate competing. The rest of the girls came from different clubs. This was the fourth competition this year, at the 3 previous meetings she obtained 3 stars (ie. the highest level in this type of competition, with 1 being the lowest).
She was so happy to be there and she had a great day. All her exercises went well and I was convinced that she would have a 3 star result again. Her team mate did not have a good day: she fell off the bars and the 3x off high beam. Normally they are quite closely matched, and sometimes I can see the other girl is better, but today (i know I'm not objective but i am trying) it was the other way around.
You can see where this is going: my girl received a 2 star result and the other girl the 3 stars. I could see my daughter trying to keep her smile up but in the car on the way home she cried her eyes out. We talked to the trainer afterwards, who was also non-plussed and vaguely promised to check the score card.
At home, for two days, my girl was upset. I can see 3 possibilities: Either her execution of the exercises was so bad that regardless of the fact that she did all required exercises her score came low. Or the jury was asleep, or her coach held up the wrong number while she was doing her exercise (namely that of her team mate). The last option is not entirely remote as my daughter caught her holding up the wrong sign at the last exercise.
So, here is where I may be unreasonable: This morning, I couldn't stop myself and have emailed the organisation to ask whether perhaps a mistake was made.
I fear that if it is a case of mistaken identity due to the fact that the coach held up the wrong number, it may be that the coach will not admit to it. I'm not sure the organisation will reply as it was a general info email. Was I terribly unreasonable? Is this just something you have to accept in a jury-sport?

Take the other girl out of it. Challenging her result is what puts you as BU.

However saying that your daughter is puzzled as to why this time she received 2 stars when she felt it went as well as the others and could do with pointers as to what she did wrong is fine.

@Reservoir13 As someone who is professionally involved with gymnastics; including the WGC - although isn't a judge - I know it's a big part of it for the gymnasts that often what they think was a good performance isn't judged as one. It's objectively much easier for them when they KNOW they just had a bad day, and it didn't go to plan - its much more difficult to pull yourself together and keep going if you thought you did well and your score didn't reflect that.

Be careful here that your focus doesn't slip. I'm not at all saying that you're wrong - it's very possible that the coach made a mistake, or the judges did - but that is a part of sport. It tries to be fair, but it isn't always. Sometimes it won't be. Learning to deal with that and come back better, stronger, is a part of it.

Could you link to the evidence that shows unfair treatment of children confers resilience please @SunnySaturdayMorning

I absolutely would raise it. I only voted yabu because I think you should've probably raised it at the actual competition. I dont know though if the proper process is what you've done in which case i would change my vote (ironic for this post, as yes people should be willing to change outcomes if presented with new or clarifying information which is exactly what you're doing OP).

Sometimes the whole 'that' parent thing is a damaging stereotype because it discourages people from standing up for their kids and in turn encouraging kids to stand up for themselves. Ultimately my kids are more important to me than anyone else is so I really dont care if I'm that parent. It doesnt mean I will unnecessarily complain or expect things for my kids that they dont deserve. But in situations like this, absolutely I will defend my child.

Did the girls perform identical routines? My understanding is that a complex routine with some mistakes can still score higher than a more simple routine carried out perfectly. Could this be what's happened here?

The last option is not entirely remote as my daughter caught her holding up the wrong sign at the last exercise

So does that mean your dd received a score last time that she should not have had?

Is there no rationale info for scoring that you can check - eg do the judges use score cards where they record things like falls that mark down and then you can look at that against your daughter's performance- eg if they score for falls that never happened in your dds performance then it would prove that it was a wrong identity issue

I don't think YABU to want to know which criteria made it a 2 rather than 3 performance.
Without that knowledge and constructive feedback, how are competitors meant to improve?

It is clear that she feels it is very unfair and actually brought down her confidence. In her mind she did everything right, she trained hard for her exercises and she improved, and the results were below a team mate that did not show improvement (that day, for sure the team mate would have been equal at other occasions).

Sometimes this happens. Shit happens. The trick is to pick yourself up and keep going. I hope you can help her learn this - it's a really hard lesson, but it's one that all competitors have to learn ...

I come from a performing arts family, and similar situations to the one you describe are pretty common. What I've learnt over the years is that you really have to just focus on yourself, and endure.

Really, don't make it a big thing. Help your DD move on. It'll be much healthier for you both in the long run.

But it may get you both thinking about why she competes. That might be an interesting conversation for you both.

@Reservoir13 - it's a difficult one... and I have been there many times with my DC - not gymnastics but martial arts. Let's just say it's one of the worst sports for bias, unfair judging.

My advice in this situation to my DC is always:

1. you win some & you loose some.
2. Work hard, be your best and make it as perfect as possible in order to catch out the bias judging.

As it stands DD (now 18) did incredibly well and we had the odd competition where others said things like oh she should have won this ... sadly sometimes this has to be enough.

My advice to you is, drop it. Because at the end of the competition, most judges and trainers will meet up at the pub down the road...

Thanks for your thoughts! The girls did exactly the same routine with the same level of difficulty (they train together). Before starting, the coach holds up their number (there is no verification with names etc.). As she was about to start the last exercise on Saturday, my daughter saw that the coach held up the number of her team mate and it was corrected before starting the routine. It may be that the coach used the number of the team mate also at the previous exercise(s).
And that's what makes this slightly tricky: if the coach held up the wrong number, will she admit to it? On my videos unfortunately you cannot see the number held up.
Good advice to start from the why 2 and not 3 instead of immediately referring to her teammate.

Yes I think so @Reservoir13 learning why she was a 2 is good for her development.

Her teammate score has no reflection on her and it isn’t your place to question the arks of another competitor

I was brought up to be submissive and always accept things, never question. I’m not sure it’s done me any favours!

Learning to live with disappointment and failure is important- as is learning to deal with the consequences of laziness or lack of preparation, or realising that others are better than you at certain things. But young people also need to learn to challenge things, stand up for themselves, push for fairness etc.

When dd got her A Level results, she was predicted A*/A/A and knew what sort of standard would get those grades. She was really surprised to get a B in history as she didn’t feel the paper had gone differently to previous ones.

However she accepted it well as she felt it was what she deserved for leaving her revision til the last minute!

We decided to pay for a re-mark, despite school’s discouragement, as the B didn’t feel right. After the re-mark she went up to an A. I’m glad we pushed for the ‘right’ result.

You might also educate yourself on scoring and what deductions are given for what - a “fall” from the beam differs depending on which side / whether feet hit the floor etc etc (they’re probably coached to act in a way that reduces the potential deduction) - a “fall” may have a lesser deduction than the positive points the other child received for artistry etc - the same kids can do the same routine very differently even if they’ve got the same difficulty score

As for the difficulty in being a youth sports volunteer: yes, I can see that it is challenging. In another sport of one of my kids (soccer) I also notice however that there are situations where the coach always selects the son of close friends for the core team and other kids are left as replacement (regardless of competence). I'm not complaining about this exactly for that reason (it is a volunteer job and if I think I could do better, I should do it myself).
I don't understand your logic. You are taking significant issue with what seems to be a genuine mistake/mix-up but you are happy to go along with a situation where nepotism is accepted as the norm. I have a much bigger issue with the latter. Coaches have a code of conduct to follow and are influential in the lives of young people. We live in Bucks and had a horrendous situation with girls' netball where my DD's club tolerated huge injustice of coaches blatantly favouring their own DDs at the expense of much better players. All the girls struggled with it but my DD did particularly as she played the same position as the main coach's DD in that age group and was a much better player. She was consistently sidelined to the extent that other parents approached me about the injustice of it all. DD was hugely frustrated by it and particularly the fact that they kept losing matches because of it. We thought long and hard about calling it out and concluded that we would as the life lesson for DD was more important than whether she could stay at that club. The club's response was shocking and we were effectively refused access to the safeguarding officer. It became clear that the practice was condoned at the highest level in the club by a coach that was and still is involved at national level netball. It all turned quite nasty and DD moved to a club in the next county which was much more professional and where coaches were not allowed to coach their own DDs. DD took a little while to settle but it was worth it to fully back DD and actually walk the talk on calling out injustice.

Well, in the Giro D’Italia 2023 ( one of the three major races in the cycling calendar) the organisers gave the mountain jersey, (best time up the hills) to wrong person. They got the transponders mixed up. The person who should have got the jersey was pretty gracious about it.

Stuff happens.

As to 'did my daughter learn anything...confidence': It is clear that she feels it is very unfair and actually brought down her confidence.

She now has a choice, let it kill her confidence or let it give her "backbone" for the world of competing.

I lost out on a gold medal in the finals of a European martial arts competition. I know that I beat the other person, I landed far more high scoring kicks, they didn't, but was still judged to have beat me by 3 points.

It certainly stuck in my throat, as I know I beat them, but there was absolutely nothing I could do, but shake their hand and congratulate them.

I know nothing about gymnastics, but will the score card review be enough to clarify if things were mixed up? I mean if the score card explicitly says "fell off beam"/" put hand to ground at dismount" or something v specific like that, then of course that will be easy to disprove if you videoed it, but are the scores marked in a way to allow that, or is it a broader sort of marking, IYSWIM?

Gymnastics has clear scoring guidelines, it should be relatively straightforward for them to explain why your child got what she got.

Its been a while since I've been involved in the sport, but while falls are penalised significantly, smaller form errors can add up very quickly.

It's more than possible for a gymnast with generally excellent form, but falls, to outscore a gymnast who doesn't fall. But that's a theoretical point. Only the judges know what happened in this instance.

She now has a choice, let it kill her confidence or let it give her "backbone" for the world of competing.

Excellent advice.

Competing is tough, so you & your DD need to work out whether it's worth it. But it should be about her goals, her achievements, not that she's better or worse than others.

Learning a difficult skill, such as gymnastics (or ballet or martial arts, or playing an instrument) is a really important life skill for DC, with all the things that acquiring & perfecting something difficult brings. I hope you and your DD can get past this, and she remains enthusiastic about her sport/art because of what it is, not the stars she wins.

The event you describe may very well have been a mistake but without evidence I very much doubt the result would be changed.
However; I competed at national level up to 16 and I have a couple of things I would like to add. Gymnastics does foster a hyper competitive culture but here's the thing, almost no one makes it. My wonderful coach taught me several invaluable life lessons, including never to leave your self respect on the floor and that if you are a gymnast you have a physical courage that very few people possess. I've seen loads of weird things happen in competition and you really have to want to laugh at them. So respect to your dd and you and there's always another day.

Was the routine videod? I have known of very low scores in trampolining competitions being overturned if the judges were shown a good quality video and there was a clear error.

There could be many reasons. For example if your Dd completed a move on beam and landed it but it wasn't neat but the other girl did it better and landed with 2 feet on the beam then fell she could end up with higher marks even though she had a fall. It does sound hard for your daughter though. I spent years watching subjective gym comps then moved on to even more subjective marking of dance comps. It can be really hard to see your Dd work and not get the marks you and she hoped for. I would agree that asking where she could have improved to get a three rather than questioning the other child's score is a better idea

You're not "allowing her to think the judges get it wrong". They DO get it wrong, she already knows that. If you try and convince her that they don't, you look like an idiot!
Same for her coach, don't tell her that she has to trust him and he's infallible, she already knows he has made mistakes.

This idea that accepting other peoples mistakes is character building and good for her is just ridiculous.

As a PP said gymnastics scoring
guidelines are very very clear. Eg you can see the WAG NDP Grade guidelines here https://www.british-gymnastics.org/west-midlands/document-download/disciplines-3/womens/12540-british-club-grades/file

Not sure what your DD was competing in but her coach should be able to tell you very clearly where her 2 stars came from. And then you might find out if it was a mistake. (I have been a spectator at a major comp and two girls’ numbers/scores got mixed up - the coach and parents were quick to correct though as the results for each piece come up
on a screen after scoring.)