Casual ageism towards women from teen DD

[coolnice]

We were out and about at a tourist place today having a lovely day and A lady walked by late 30s to mid 40s wearing cut off denim shorts and a vest

And after she passed DD (13) said omg mum did you see the absolute state of that woman ?? her bum was practically hanging out (it wasn't) expecting me to laugh. Well I didn't I said to her i thought she looked nice and that's not okay she can wear what she wants. I said you wear stuff like that (she does) and DD said yeah but she is SO OLD and saggy and it's disgusting.

personally I thought she looked lovely and wasn't remotely saggy not that that matters as I think people should wear what the fuck they want regardless of age / body shape etc

I tried to explain why it wasn't okay to be so mean and how that lady (and anyone) has the right to wear what they want. and asked why she thought is young skin is okay to be out but older skin isn't? but failed as DD was just laughing and then I changed the subject as i was honestly so angry and I did not want to ruin the day.
Made me a bit sad as well as is that what she thinks of me as I wear shorts etc when it's hot not that I should care !

I am in my early 40s and in the last 10-15 years have discovered feminism and read a lot and had my eyes opened but when I was young I felt exactly like this too. And it's wrong and I'm very embarrassed for the younger me. I feel like I need to talk to her about casual ageism and the internalised misogyny that gets so ingrained from an early age. That she too will be older and subject to the same ridicule and attitude that she displayed today. But how to broach that with a teenager ? As teens by their nature don't quite believe they'll ever get older !

Just don’t comment on people’s looks and tell her you think less of her for doing so

You can comment on people's looks if its nice

Yes !! I have "women don't owe you pretty" it's brilliant

But I'm not sure it's suitable for her just yet as there is quite a lot to do with sex etc and some of it is quite graphic as i remember .

You are right actually, as soon as I hit send I thought that probably wasn’t the best example as it’s more suited to young women.

The birds papaya is a good instagram account, she’s a mum of four so on the forefront may not be the most relatable for your DD. She talks a lot about body image though and actually is probably around the same age as the lady your DD was criticising. One of her posts that struck a chord with me was about not wanting to miss fun on the beach with her kids because she was scared of being seen in a bikini. She’s fantastic for encouraging reframing how we as women think of our bodies later in life or after children. Maybe a good look/read for your DD.

The moment someone says "i like your hair" how is that likely not = "It didn't look so good before." If negative is out of order, so is positive, if same principles apply to all comments on appearance. I don't actually agree with MNr opinions about comments on appearances anyway, btw. For me: discreet negative comments are allowed and compliments are pretty meaningless too.

Think I would have loved to tease my DD about how I looked forward to seeing her future saggy butt in whatever she chose to wear in middle age, is where my engagement with OP's situation would have stopped.

I wonder what OP will do...

I'm sitting here, as a 40 something who wears whatever I like, thinking about how neither of the dc would dare say anything like that in front of me, because they've been having The Talk all their lives.

Then I remember 18 year old me, with my perfect 18 year old body and vastly superior intellect, thinking how appalling it was that women in their late 20s were going to the same nightclub as me and, the horror, wearing knee high boots.

I think teenage girls are perhaps the worst, because they're usually quite insecure themselves and need to find someone else to put down, to reassure themselves that they aren't the worst.

@Twisting

"
Then I remember 18 year old me, with my perfect 18 year old body and vastly superior intellect, thinking how appalling it was that women in their late 20s were going to the same nightclub as me and, the horror, wearing knee high boots"

THIS WAS ME

I was so awful as a young woman. What the fuck was wrong with us that we'd be so nasty to other females 🥺

Flabby saggy bodies on view in skimpy tops (bras also on view) has been norm in English summers for at least 25 years. And sometimes in winters, too, (Newcastle nights)... Increasingly of all ages & skin colours. I predict it will continue to be norm for decades to come. My prediction is no intervention required because we all get used to it.

Agree with you OP that the comments were based on the woman's age and you are right to object to it.

@lljkk agree that it has been the norm since the end of the last century. I don't think it will change, even though I think it looks awful, as do many men in warmer weather too, regardless of age. It makes a pleasant change for me to visit France and see style in summer.

Clamp down on it. We don’t need any more internalised misogyny from young women.

Get her “Hags” by Victoria Smith. It’s really good on “saggy” bodies and the destruction of binds between different generations of women.

Thanks for recommending this. One of the customer reviews says

'Dismiss her at your will but born to our bodies this is your tomorrow. We are ‘old’ longer than we are young and the days speed up. Protest as you might Hag is coming your way. I hope you have advocates when she does.'

It is hard to talk to a teen about this stuff. Which is why it's best to talk about bodies, self esteem and feminist issues from a young age. Obviously in an age appropriate way. What conversations have you had before thia bout these subjects? Can you link it to them?

I'd be really sad and disappointed too op. But at leat you can try to address it now.

So I've always been massively body positive and very pro women towards my daughters.
I listen to a lot of female bands and singers and have bought them books on women who've achieved stuff. I model body positivity to them I don't diet or talk about myself negatively I proudly wear bikinis on holiday even tho 3 c sections have not been kind to me 😆 I'm not super slim and i have got wrinkles and greys. But I very much have a fuck it attitude which I hope shows: I'm not perfect but that doesn't stop me wearing what I want. I'm also very into running and I also do pole fitness.

my younger daughter goes horse riding but I can't seem to find any sports my other daughter is interested in (as I think that really helps them)

I always compliment them on their achievements and intelligence and kindness etc and I tell them how great they are every day. but I do tell them they are beautiful too as I think it is important as young people are prone to low self esteem anyway . I never ever had that from my own mum and I had the worst self esteem ever growing up. My heart breaks for the young me as I was pretty and clever and no one ever told me this. I see photos of my self in my teens and twenties and I was stunning

I then made a lot of mistakes from early teens I had a lot of awful boyfriends and then I married young and was mentally and physically abused by my first husband. I allowed a lot of men to mistreat me. I also did a lot of things I'm not proud of like sleeping with married / attached guys

I DO NOT want that for my daughters (or son for that matter)

So it could be that your DD is proud of her Mum but is expressing this unfortunately by putting down other women. She did assume that you would be laughing along with her too.

@BeginningToLookALotLike I do hope she is proud of me. I am not sure why she assumed I would laugh along, as I have never expressed this sort of opinion or made fun of anyones appearance, male or female

Your DD's comments were obviously a surprise to you,OP, I certainly wasn't suggesting that you had been modelling these attitudes for her to pick up on. As PP have said, at least you can try to address it now.

There was nothing wrong with us-I enjoyed being lithe and leggy when young but wouldn’t wear those same clothes at 60. I don’t want the world to see my varicose veins thanks. And it’s perfectly normal at 18 to think 30 year olds are old. Nothing misogynistic or ageist about that. Same as I think younger men look great with scruffy hair, stubble and jeans but seeing a 60 year old like that makes me go ugh.They just look seedy. It’s not a crime to have opinions on the way people look.

Unrealistic. Most of us dress to express ourselves, I'm having a big "over 60 and colourful dungarees, sod it "period rn. Compliments on good taste and fun styling ( I love funky coloured hair, though I can't bleach my own dark hair to get it due to allergy) for everyone is the way to go. I'll bet good money you don't go out in ripped or soiled clothes just because they're comfortable...

She's 13, a 30 year old feels ancient to her and teens say horrible things all the time. Mouth starts moving before their brain has caught up.

I think sometimes teenagers say silly things that they don’t really mean. If she regularly laughs at how others look then it’d be a worry. I would probably have just very quietly said ‘that’s not nice’ or something along those lines. Enough to let her know that I never want to hear her mock that way again.

Whilst I think your daughter comment were inappropriate, I remember back when I was a teenager someone is their 30's seemed old. She will grow out of this mindset.

@Hongkongsuey

See I disagree, I believe it's internalised misogyny that makes us think that way and it isn't remotely harmless. This kind of thinking was totally ingrained in me and I only started to grew out of it in my 30s when my eyes were opened to feminism.

If you feel like you don't want to show your legs off for your own reasons, for example varicose veins then that is fine (not that you need my approval!!) but I can completely understand why you'd feel self conscious. And actually in my early 30s I paid privately to have mine removed for cosmetic reasons 😳😳so I can't really say anything!

But I feel that so many of us feel like we have to hide to some degree if we are not "perfect" and it's not just even the over 40s it's younger women too (I saw and heard it a lot over the years from friends etc) but I suppose that's a whole other discussion not to do with ageism more to do with the general pressure on females from a young age to conform to certain beauty standards

Ageism and misogyny aren't trivial and 13 is old enough to have a conversation about those issues.

Dd (11) and I had a conversation about why 'Karen', when used in a derogatory way, can be sexist/misogynistic/ageist. She hadn't really grasped what it meant - had just been parroting other pre-teens.
I could have ignored it, rendered it 'normal' pre-teen behaviour and let her continue using it. But I didn't. For obvious reasons.

I do find it an unusual remark from a 13 year old. As a PP said, to most young teens that woman would be invisible and irrelevant.
You also said the woman actually didn't look 'bad' in the clothes anyway, so it seems strange there was such a strong reaction, when seeing women with less than perfect bodies in skimpy clothes is an every day occurance on a warm day, that she must have witnessed countless times.
She may have been trying to provoke you, especially if you've started to talk a fair bit about your own awareness of these issues. Or she may be test driving a mean girl persona ready to fit in somewhere.
I think I'd see it as pertinent to explore why she said it, rather than just focusing on why she shouldn't have.