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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Casual ageism towards women from teen DD

75 replies

coolnice · 07/05/2023 19:31

We were out and about at a tourist place today having a lovely day and A lady walked by late 30s to mid 40s wearing cut off denim shorts and a vest

And after she passed DD (13) said omg mum did you see the absolute state of that woman ?? her bum was practically hanging out (it wasn't) expecting me to laugh. Well I didn't I said to her i thought she looked nice and that's not okay she can wear what she wants. I said you wear stuff like that (she does) and DD said yeah but she is SO OLD and saggy and it's disgusting.

personally I thought she looked lovely and wasn't remotely saggy not that that matters as I think people should wear what the fuck they want regardless of age / body shape etc

I tried to explain why it wasn't okay to be so mean and how that lady (and anyone) has the right to wear what they want. and asked why she thought is young skin is okay to be out but older skin isn't? but failed as DD was just laughing and then I changed the subject as i was honestly so angry and I did not want to ruin the day.
Made me a bit sad as well as is that what she thinks of me as I wear shorts etc when it's hot not that I should care !

I am in my early 40s and in the last 10-15 years have discovered feminism and read a lot and had my eyes opened but when I was young I felt exactly like this too. And it's wrong and I'm very embarrassed for the younger me. I feel like I need to talk to her about casual ageism and the internalised misogyny that gets so ingrained from an early age. That she too will be older and subject to the same ridicule and attitude that she displayed today. But how to broach that with a teenager ? As teens by their nature don't quite believe they'll ever get older !

OP posts:
Nightlystroll · 07/05/2023 20:56

As a 63yo obese woman, I'm totally against people commenting on anyones appearance!

But come on. This isn't a new phenomenon. Of course when you're young, you think old people (over 23) look disgusting and should be covering up. You also think your parents should never have sex. There's none as intolerant as the young.
Quite rightly you want to correct her but she's not committed a new cardinal sin. Clearly you model good behaviour so as she grows up, she'll realise that her comments were uncalled for.
I strongly believe that everyone should dress as they want (within the law!) and not be harassed. But it doesnt stop me seeing celebrities and thinking WTAF!

Worriedmotheroftwo · 07/05/2023 20:57

You're absolutely right of course. Although I have to admit I was like your daughter when I was a teen. I remember using the term 'mutton dressed as lamb' (got that from my dad). I think you're a great mum to be trying to help her to understand - I never had that. Just keep calling it out.

Wenfy · 07/05/2023 21:00

My neice started doing this whenever she was jealous of how someone looked. Might be a sign of bullying. Delve deeper.

Original poster
coolnice · 07/05/2023 21:13

Wenfy · 07/05/2023 21:00

My neice started doing this whenever she was jealous of how someone looked. Might be a sign of bullying. Delve deeper.

Sadly dd has been bullied 😞

So you'd think she'd know better

OP posts:
Original poster
coolnice · 07/05/2023 21:21

I was absolutely awful as a teen and young person as well, completely judgemental about older women and even women who I thought were attractive I felt hate towards like who does she think SHE is. I was not a nice person and I did a lot of very unsisterly stuff I'm ashamed of like I slept with more than one man who was attached. and at the time I wasn't remotely sorry because it made me feel I was winning some sort of competition

My parents were awful for commenting on how people looked as well. and I heard mutton dressed as lamb a LOT 😞 and mum being very very critical of herself and other women. Although she did not say anything bad about how I looked I never once got a compliment off my mum

It is all very well saying oh all teens think everyone over 23 is old which is correct. but I that this type of ageism stems from a kind of misogyny which is absolutely ingrained in people from a very young age particularly towards women

I don't think a man over 40 in shorts even if overweight or whatever would have even registered with DD or anyone tbh

OP posts:
PattyDuckface · 07/05/2023 21:26

Oh dear.

You have to tell her that she is hurting herself when she thinks like this. Women can't be invisible after a certain age, otherwise the only valued life we have is 40 years long.
And it is more than just thinking older women look horrible, it seeps into thinking older women shouldn't be confident or visible or have any role in society.

It's her future self she hurts.

Original poster
coolnice · 07/05/2023 21:31

PattyDuckface · 07/05/2023 21:26

Oh dear.

You have to tell her that she is hurting herself when she thinks like this. Women can't be invisible after a certain age, otherwise the only valued life we have is 40 years long.
And it is more than just thinking older women look horrible, it seeps into thinking older women shouldn't be confident or visible or have any role in society.

It's her future self she hurts.

This ! This is what I mean

OP posts:
Workawayxx · 07/05/2023 21:34

I think all you can do is keep making little comments: would you say the same about a man in shorts? We can all wear whatever we like, it’s just a body <shrug> etc etc. I totally get you feeling upset about it though. I do find with my ds that I want him to take my point when I say it but sometimes it takes a while to sink in. Cultivate some opportunities to discuss further and be curious about her responses but gently challenge. It’s shit but it’s not her fault exactly, she’s just taking on the culture.

hereiamagainn · 07/05/2023 21:48

I think the moat effective thing you can do is to model positive attitudes. Start commenting appreciatively whenever you see women dress however the hell they like, hopefully she’ll start picking up the message.

5128gap · 07/05/2023 22:09

coolnice · 07/05/2023 21:13

Sadly dd has been bullied 😞

So you'd think she'd know better

Show quote history

No. Its really common amongst the bullied to disparage others. It's a way of distancing yourself from targets.
Thinking goes, if you're the sort of person who laughs at other people's appearance, then you can't be the sort of person people laugh at.
I'd be surprised if this new mean streak isn't part of an attempt to adopt the persona of someone who isn't a target.

Mummy08m · 07/05/2023 23:01

hereiamagainn · 07/05/2023 21:48

I think the moat effective thing you can do is to model positive attitudes. Start commenting appreciatively whenever you see women dress however the hell they like, hopefully she’ll start picking up the message.

I think this is nice but I personally don't agree with this. I think a better goal would be to move away from preoccupation with (women's) looks and dress entirely. I don't generally notice or care what people are wearing. My DH and I choose clothes based 99% on whether they're comfortable and I want my dd to see clothes that way too, mostly as a way to keep the body warm, rather than artificially pointing out how nice strangers look.

SnackSizeRaisin · 08/05/2023 06:11

hereiamagainn · 07/05/2023 21:48

I think the moat effective thing you can do is to model positive attitudes. Start commenting appreciatively whenever you see women dress however the hell they like, hopefully she’ll start picking up the message.

I think that commenting on people's appearance in general is not representing a positive attitude. Fair enough if it's something way out of the ordinary of course.

I think that society is regressing on this issue. There's so much appearance with appearance among young girls today that simply wasn't there years ago. All this taking endless selfies and complimenting each other on their appearance.

The best thing is try to look past appearance and see who people really are. It comes with practice.

TallerThanAverage · 08/05/2023 06:30

I would have reminded her that she is going to inherit my saggy arse.

Sunnysidegold · 08/05/2023 06:43

I love the idea of making her think about her future self.

I remember when I was ten or eleven thinking it was gross when you saw "old" people canoodling on TV. My mum said something along the lines of "well I hope you have someone who loves you when you're that age" and i didn't get it at the time but it clearly stuck with me.

I like the idea that the first thought you have is the one youve been conditioned to think - so when I see someone a little heavier wearing a crop top I instantly remember Heat magazine's Circle of Shame and how they slagged off people's appearance. I then think something like "she is comfortable in her own skin and wears what she wants to and that's liberating, good for her".

Ok so maybe not as twee as that, but it might be a place to start from. Include the thought of her future self - what she thinks of first and what she would say to her future self.

Oblomov23 · 08/05/2023 06:56

Have you now had a calm conversation, and corrected her? If this is her viewpoint, you actually have quite a lot of work to do on her.

Tourmalines · 08/05/2023 07:03

Forfrigz · 07/05/2023 20:21

I'd point at the nearest youngun in hotpants and say 'and look, that daft tart thinks it's fun to pander to the male gaze, apparently oblivious most young men are now impotent by watching too much porn. Ew.'

😠

Hongkongsuey · 08/05/2023 07:23

Tbh, as long as she wasn’t saying it in hearing of the other woman, it’s not rude. I would just ignore it-it’s pretty normal for young teenagers to think older people’s sense of fashion is disgusting. I would mildly say she can wear what she wants and leave it at that. Don’t get worked up or fall out with your dd about something so trivial. I see plenty of people who should -imo-make different clothes choices but so what? They wear what they like but people can have opinions too.

CarpetSlipper · 08/05/2023 07:35

I would have just said the person she was commenting on doesn’t care what she thinks.

PollyPut · 08/05/2023 07:40

@coolnice it wasn't nice. But I'd be more worried about what your DD might be saying about others her age and the effect it would have on them. Her behaviour sounds like it could quite easily become mean to others/descend into bullying.

Have a think about who she is hanging out with and where she is getting her influences from

5128gap · 08/05/2023 08:24

Hongkongsuey · 08/05/2023 07:23

Tbh, as long as she wasn’t saying it in hearing of the other woman, it’s not rude. I would just ignore it-it’s pretty normal for young teenagers to think older people’s sense of fashion is disgusting. I would mildly say she can wear what she wants and leave it at that. Don’t get worked up or fall out with your dd about something so trivial. I see plenty of people who should -imo-make different clothes choices but so what? They wear what they like but people can have opinions too.

She's not just displaying her different taste in clothing though, is she? She is talking about the woman and her age, not her clothes. Fashion that she would no doubt have no issue with were it not for her disgust at the age of the wearers body.
It really isn't trivial when girls as young as 13 have already internalised misogynist attitudes. As PPs have said, she's talking about herself in a few years time, and if she doesn't change her mindset will be living 75% of her adult life despising her own body.
Personally if I could spare my daughter that with a temporary 'falling out' now and again, it would be well worth it.

hoeaboutit · 08/05/2023 08:32

Does your DD use social media yet? As much as there are problematic issues with it, social media can actually be really helpful for things like this. There are some really cool accounts that I think for young women are really worth a follow.
Florence Given on instagram is a good one that springs to mind. She’s an author and wrote the book “Women don’t owe you pretty”.

Of course having conversations with your DD is the first step but if you can utilise a platform like instagram to make it educational I think it’s really beneficial.

spottybug · 08/05/2023 08:35

How has she got to this age thinking its ok? I'd be absolutely horrified. I think you need to have a serious chat with her.

Olindia · 08/05/2023 08:46

I think it’s to do with the bullying, at that age “old” people were invisible to me, I wouldn’t have noticed what people were wearing but I was always comfortable in my own skin, i wouldn’t say I was confident or didn’t have insecurities but they were my own.
whilst I do think it’s worth having the talk about future worth and internalised misogyny I think working to increase her own self confidence wouldn’t be a bad idea.

BanditsOnTheHorizon · 08/05/2023 08:50

My teen DD can be a like this, I suspect she does it to shock without any thought to what she's saying. We were watching to Coronation and she kept saying that Charles was 'boring' and 'old', I tried to have a conversation with her about why she thought that, but these days she'll argue over EVERYTHING, so I'm on a losing battle. She'd argue the grass isn't green and the sky isn't blue if I tried to talk to her about it. (By the way I actually agree with her about KC but was interested to hear her thoughts)

Whatt · 08/05/2023 08:54

I would say;
"Hey listen, you will be that age one day. I know it feels like a long time away but it will feel like a blink of an eye. That women used to be your age too and probably had a similar body to you. How are you going to feel in the future when thats you and some teen is judging you?"