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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

If you’re a British expat living abroad, or an expat from abroad living in Britain…

147 replies

Coffeeandbourbons · 03/05/2023 15:53

Can I ask where you now live/moved from, whether you would move back, and what you like/dislike?

I’ve only lived in the U.K. but for about 2 years have been increasingly thinking about leaving, for what are probably obvious reasons (weather, expensive housing, general quality of life in decline).

We have to stay put for another 3 years at least so I can finish my professional qualification (currently on mat leave, with 2 years left to go when I return to work) so want to use that time to do some homework on what might suit our family.

TIA

OP posts:
ShanghaiDiva · 03/05/2023 18:31

I was an expat for 25 years: Germany, Austria and China. China was the most amazing experience (12years) and we loved exploring the country and Asia. Weather where I lived was very hot in the summer (40 degrees was common) and damp in the winter, so not much to envy there. I had excellent healthcare in Germany and Austria, my children attended state school which was through if a little uninspiring at times and when the children were young it was ideal to just pack up the car and drive to another country for a holiday.
downsides: learning a new language can be challenging, a lot of paperwork and bureaucracy and sometimes no matter now lovely the place is, it’s same shit, different bucket.

RoseLee04 · 03/05/2023 18:32

FinallyHere · 03/05/2023 17:59

Most of my closest friends I've met since moving here have an international aspect to them

I've moved around quite a bit and find this, too. I think it's a natural consequence. People who have never moved very far from where they were born just don't understand what it's like to move continents, to have all your networks disrupted.

People who have moved around are much more likely to have space in their life for new friends and acquaintances, even be looking out for new contacts.

At work, I discovered a colleague who happens to live quite close to me. This is quite unusual and she really is a delightful person. We do lunch at work but even after decades, have never done anything outside work. I'm hoping it's just because having a large family and never having lived anywhere else, her social life is already full of people. Sigh.

I have become much closer to other people I have known for much less time simply because they have been open even keen to make new friends, having moved here as adults.

It's not just about your outlook, but moving and network disruption will make people more outward looking regardless of where they live.

This is so true. I always found that I got on better with non-Brits in places I've lived as more often than not, it was often their first time of living abroad or of much cultural experience beyond UK! This sounds snobby but I come from an international background myself and basically I just preferred the much broader-minded and diverse characteristics that I experienced in other Europeans and even the Americans when I lived in US. One hard thing about moving abroad is that if the place tends to be transient, with a lot of people coming and going, it's very hard to make sustainable friends. I'm actually pretty lonely where I live right now as there is not a hugely diverse pool of people to make friends with. I find that I really miss some of my friends back in the UK and grow worried that distance and time will make us lose touch especially as most of them can't afford the flight over here!

coxesorangepippin · 03/05/2023 18:34

Brit who has lived in Canada for the last 14 years.

Prefer Canada personally, it's more equal. Schools are good, weather is fabulous, standard of living more affordable.

Plus, I do not like the class system in the UK, it's very restrictive.

TheVanguardSix · 03/05/2023 18:35

I’m a Californian in the UK since the 90s. A huge desire to come to London in the age of Cool Britannia was the lure, plus I got signed by Storm models, had a British passport thanks to my Irish mum (who was born in the UK). I had the opportunity and desire to come here, so I did and fell head over heels in love with London immediately. I was 23.

I then lived in Italy and France, moving back to London in 1999. I’ve raised my 3 British children here.

I’m 51 now and my two younger kids and I will be moving to Spain. My older one is at uni and will remain here. My time in the UK has truly run its course. My divorce and ex’s loss of PR gives me a chance to really just put one foot forward and step into a new place.

I’d never return to America. I never miss it and I don’t enjoy going back. In fact I dread the odd occasion when I have to, even though I am from a beautiful part of California.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/05/2023 18:58

For fifteen years, we lived in France and England. Not a holiday home situation, we had a proper house and garden in both countries, spent five months without a pause in France, seven in England.

Why not six and six? Because the French taxation system for residents( which kicks in at 179 days in a year , or did when we were there) would have been punitive. The various benefits, which are enjoyed by what the British would think of as middle class people, not just unemployed or low paid people, have to be paid for from taxation. We paid our local taxes, but not the residents’ (and we didn’t get any of the benefits, naturally).

I loved it in France, we made a big effort to speak fluent French, we adopted French manners. The highlights were of course food and wine, the space and lack of over crowding but I respected the French pride and love for their patrimony and their nationality. I still find the relentless self hatred of the English bourgeoisie baffling and annoying.

On the other hand, the extraordinary bureaucracy, the gross inefficiency and inflexibility of many institutions and offices, and the creeping control of the EU over many of the French laws and practices, which were resented by most of our neighbours,,were quite difficult to live with. The situation in the banlieues and the quite real danger of extremism against ordinary citizens is seen as a growing problem.

when we felt we had to choose one place, because we were finding the travel and administration too tiring, we chose England. Perhaps it was just because at heart we are British.

Coffeeandbourbons · 04/05/2023 11:46

Interesting replies, thank you.

Both DH and I are legal. He’s very experienced in a niche area that isn’t transferable abroad, essentially. He would have to look for a new job altogether. I’m a trainee and due to finish my postgrad in a couple of years (training through the company I work for having been a paralegal previously).

My only options are a conversion course or applying for an international firm once I finish training. The former is probably a better option as I’ve worked in this particular area of law for a long time and therefore have quite a lot of experience to apply for other jobs with (I’ve noticed the application process for Aus takes this into account).

As for where; that’s the million dollar question. I’m proficient (if not quite fluent) in French and DH was born in Malta, but we are thinking of somewhere English speaking for practical reasons. Australia is at the moment the front runner, but it is FAR away and we would need to do a serious amount of homework/visiting before any final decisions were made. I’ve put some money aside for a visit possibly next year.

I’m very realistic and know our lives, wherever we are, will be much the same as here in many ways - work and childcare mainly. I just want to be able to walk out the front door without wet weather gear on, or checking the forecast to know what time to hurry home before I get rained on. It feels like all plans here are ruined by the weather and we spend so many days either sat at home or doing expensive indoor activities because the weather is so bad.

I would also like somewhere with decent public services, I had a scary experience with the NHS in March when giving birth to DS (essentially no delivery rooms available, so left to labour on an open ward until fully dilated, had to run to labour ward when they realised, too late for pain relief, everything mismanaged so DS was unwell when he was born) which has made me realise just how overburdened everything is.

OP posts:
potatohead1 · 04/05/2023 11:52

FeltedDogs · 03/05/2023 16:21

I have lived in Greece, Iraq, Oman, Canada, Qatar and Sweden. Qatar by far the nicest in terms of people, healthcare, safety and general happiness. Greece definitely worst. UK is not somewhere I would ever, ever consider and have ensured I have property and residents rights elsewhere, I just couldn't imagine not having access to healthcare. It's just normal elsewhere that you see a doctor when you need to and the police attend when you need them rather than just giving you a crime number. No need for any ultra trendy Qatar hatred, its irrelevant.

It’s not really hatred to point out that being on the winners side of a nation with an appalling human rights regime is of course dandy. Unless you have any ethics.

Annabel073 · 04/05/2023 11:58

We've lived in Switzerland, the US, New Zealand and Australia. Now back in the UK and intending to stay here but will keep our house in Australia (DH is Australian). Our quality of life is far superior in the UK to any of the other countries we've lived in. Each country has its good and bad points.

New Zealand hugely failed to meet our expectations but was a great base for travelling around the South Pacific. I don't regret any of the moves we've made and we have lots of great memories and have made many good friends along the way.

Coffeeandbourbons · 04/05/2023 12:12

@Annabel073 can I ask how your quality of life is better here? And (sorry to put too fine a point on it) is it because you’re very financially comfortable?

OP posts:
banruo · 04/05/2023 12:31

I feel the same OP. We have moved from NZ ( we are not kiwis but lived there for more than 10 yrs) to UK 8 years ago, but since then everything in this country went down hill. First, brexit! If we knew wthis would actually happen we wouldnt even have considered moving here ( hubby is from EU). Then the weather is just so miserable, the lack of sun, the long and dull winter, the quality of water, the muddy ground.... and the NHS! who invented such a system? We have lived in different countires, never come across such an inefficient health care system. We are forced to buy private insurances because it is just so much pain to see a doctor. Now cost of living, prices are going up every few days...the standard of living, road full of holes and no one bothers to fix. Honesty my heart tells me to leave everyday, however kids have settled well in school, so rationally it would be better for us to move when they are older, but the day we leave, I wont even look back.

MooseBreath · 04/05/2023 12:45

I am a Canadian living in the UK (my DH is British). I much prefer Canada and will be moving back once I have British citizenship (if we ever had to return to take care of DH's family, I wouldn't want to pay astronomical visa fees from the start when I've been here 8 years already).

Weather-wise, Canadian seasons are much more distinct. Summers are hotter and sunnier, winters are colder and there is guaranteed snow. The snow actually brightens the winter, so it's not so depressing. Way less rain overall.

Quality of life is better. Salaries are higher and life is generally more affordable, though the cost of living is also high. Shops are open later and there is a lot more variety. People are easier to get to know, as there isn't a "stiff upper lip" that is more prevalent here. Houses are bigger and have more outdoor space. Very multicultural. Minimal class divide.

The government is left wing.

Of course there are downsides as well (less public transit, everything is further apart so driving is necessary, food is more processed).

This is the Toronto area, so I can't speak for anywhere in the West, East, Prairies, North, or Quebec.

Coffeeandbourbons · 04/05/2023 12:56

It sounds like Canada should also go on our list - you’ve pretty much summarised everything that matters to me @MooseBreath although I know it’s a very desirable country and therefore I won’t hold my breath about being eligible for a visa!

DS is napping on me at the moment and I’m just looking out the window, once again depressed by the flat grey cloud. I know it doesn’t bother a lot of people but it really bothers me for some reason. I feel like my mood always matches the weather.

OP posts:
Annabel073 · 04/05/2023 12:59

Coffeeandbourbons · 04/05/2023 12:12

@Annabel073 can I ask how your quality of life is better here? And (sorry to put too fine a point on it) is it because you’re very financially comfortable?

We are lucky enough to be financially comfortable so obviously that means we can live in a decent sized, comfortable, energy efficient home with enough space to enjoy our hobbies while still being within easy travelling distance of good restaurants, shops and a major airport.

We also have so much more flexibility in our working days/hours to be able to enjoy what we have - beautiful beaches and mountains on our doorstep without travelling long distances. For us, returning to the UK was very much the right decision but if I had to choose to live anywhere else it would be Australia (although I'm obviously biased because DH's family are there, so we have that permanent connection).

Samphiredragonfly · 04/05/2023 13:02

@Annabel073 are you in the south east ? Or a naice part of the North because I think that would influence how you feel. Transplant your family to somewhere less desirable and you'd feel differently I'm sure.....

Eyesopenwideawake · 04/05/2023 13:06

@LightDrizzle waves from Tomar 😎

Annabel073 · 04/05/2023 13:07

Samphiredragonfly · 04/05/2023 13:02

@Annabel073 are you in the south east ? Or a naice part of the North because I think that would influence how you feel. Transplant your family to somewhere less desirable and you'd feel differently I'm sure.....

We now live in the North West. We were in Central London before our first move abroad. I do realise it very much depends on individual circumstances and the same could be said about other countries we've lived in. I just wanted to share my own personal experience to show that the grass isn't always greener.

StarlightLady · 04/05/2023 13:07

I was born in the UK but spent my younger years and teens in France due to dad's job. I currently live and work in the UK, but in many ways I feel more French than British.

I'm happy living in either country depending on work opportunities.

unsync · 04/05/2023 13:11

I have dual nationality, UK/EU, when my current family obligations are over, I am leaving the UK for the EU. I know I'm fortunate to have the chance to do this.

Monkmeister · 04/05/2023 13:19

Moved from the UK to Scandinavia about 15 years ago and have no plans to return to the UK. I visit friends and family a couple of times a year back in the UK and each time I feel less and less connected to the UK culture. I love the life we have built here in Scandinavia. I'm fluent in the language now and have a job that relies on this language skill. We have a huge house right by the beach. Everything is clean and tidy and there is lots of communal resources and space. I bike and walk everywhere and it is safe to do so. Public transport is reliable and doesn't cost the earth. My kids are in private school (but the municipal schools are good as well) and it costs less than £200 a month for both of them and there are about 20 kids in each class. We have opportunities here that we could never afford in the UK. I can get a doctor's appointment same day and any referrals are usually within a few days of being sent by the GP. Comparing prices of foodstuffs when in Edinburgh last month, and I have to say I think UK prices are higher at the moment. Socially we have a wide circle of friends obtained through work and hobbies and although many are internationals like us, we also have strong connections to the locals. I love it and have to kick myself that this is real.

Coffeeandbourbons · 04/05/2023 14:24

Thank you @Monkmeister where are you, roughly can I ask please?

OP posts:
VeryQuaintIrene · 04/05/2023 14:46

Brit in the US, moved here almost 30 years ago for a job. I have a much better standard of living here than I would in the UK (academic in a somewhat contracting humanities field) and where I live is extremely liberal and Euro/anglophile. I am sure that in lots of parts of the US, I wouldn't have been as happy as I have been. I've kept connection with friends and family in the UK and when my mum was old was flying back 4 and 5 times a year to try to take care of her, so I've never lost my connection with the UK. I love where I live but the guns and the extreme right wingers seem to be getting worse and worse. My partner is American. When I retire in 7 years or so, I plan to live half the year in the US and half in the UK because the UK is really, really deep home to me in the way that the US will never be, happy as I am here.

51Pegasusb · 04/05/2023 15:11

I've lived in NL for 22 years. My DH is Dutch as are my kids, I took Dutch nationality 6 years ago and kept my British ( if you've lived here long enough and married to a Dutch person you don't need to give up your British nationality), I've very happy to retain a red passport and the IND leave me alone too.
What I miss about the UK- my family, friends and the rolling hills/countryside! Yorkshire tea, crumpets and a very good selection of Gluten free food.
We've just got back from a visit to the UK, it's so dirty in places and also the shocking amount of the potholes and road cones used for non existent roadworks what is going on with the roads!? My family are still quite bitter about Brexit but feel stuck now.

We'll never move to the UK, I enjoy my life here, I'm settled. My kids ride their bikes to school daily and back, belong to many groups clubs and have some lovely friends. They're incredibly independent too, don't have to ferry them about they just take their fiets. My job is part time, very flexible around my family, as is my husbands. We have great public transport almost on the doorstep even though we live in a small village away from any major city.
The way I think, talk and do stuff I'm probably more Dutch than British now, and I'm okay with that.

LadyRoughDiamond · 04/05/2023 15:38

We’re looking at leaving the UK for the same reasons as you OP; Singapore and Dubai appeal at the moment.

Chocolatefreak · 04/05/2023 15:45

I've lived in France for nearly 8 years. I come back to the UK regularly and I will always love British humour, the country's amazing scientific and cultural achievements, pubs, the architecture, the countryside, the food, supermarkets.... I could go on and on. But, I am increasingly dismayed how shabby it looks, how divisive and aggressive its politics are, how misplaced people's pride is (eg in the Royal Family), and how sensible other countries seem in contrast....

When you look at the protests the French have been making over the pension age, yes they are violent, but they are putting their energy into preserving their quality of life instead of letting themselves be walked all over. I wish Brits would wake up and have some self-respect - vote for a government that serves the people instead of themselves.

Siochana · 04/05/2023 16:49

AngryAndUnapologetic · 03/05/2023 17:23

I've lived in Thailand for nearly 5 years. Previously lived in South America but repatriated to the UK to be closer to family when I had a child, and immediately knew that I didn't want to stay. I left again 2 years later and have no plans to go back to live there.

Things I like about Thailand - we have a very good lifestyle (nice house, wonderful nanny, cheap holidays, cheap food, free schooling as I'm a teacher and that's part of my package), the weather (although this definitely does not suit everyone!), the food, the festivals (Songkran and Loy Krathong especially), usually the people (although it is impossible to integrate here; you always remain a 'farang' or foreigner regardless of length of stay, looks, or language level!)

Things I dislike - the language is REALLY hard, it is very far from the UK, foreign men often behave terribly here (not just sexpats but tourists and long term expats, too), pollution levels are high for part of the year, and we do not have a free press.

Hello neighbour, I live in Vietnam Smile I've actually never been to Thailand but I agree with pretty much everything you said, except that the language is easier to learn than Thai, and from what I've heard I think it's easier to befriend locals here (although here too you'll always be considered foreign).

I'd recommenit Vietnam as a place to live if you're youngish, like big cities, like the kind of 'uni lifestyle' of rocking up to random new social groups and immediately befriending complete strangers, and don't mind a constant stream of minor inconveniences like power outages, unwalkable pavements and ATMs that don't work. If your main motivation for wanting to emigrate is that the UK is going downhill then I wouldn't recommend it, because to be blunt almost everything here is objectively worse except the people and the weather (and you might find the weather equally as bad for the opposite reasons). Last time I went back to the UK I was probably the only person in the whole country marveling at how clean and tidy it all was Grin If you just want to live 'somewhere else' withoit any particular draw to this part of the world then I'd probably try looking at Europe first, if you're able.

My stay here is currently indefinite, although I haven't been here long, but I'd hate to feel stuck here and am also a lot happier knowing I could still return to the UK any time I want. If I wanted to live somewhere else closer to my family but didn't want to go back to the UK then I'd probably look at Spain, as it's another place full of loud extroverts with massive families Grin