AIBU to despair about DofE cheating

[WhatTheHeckIsIt]

Someone I know very well is the teacher who leads the Duke of Edinburgh at a school. Their teen is going to Buckingham Palace to receive their gold award. There is no way on this planet the teen has completed any of the activities - it's a stitch up.

It's made me feel really sad.

a) I expected more of this person
b) I expected more of their child
c) how could you let your child accept an award amongst people who have worked really hard to achieve it
d) it devalues everyone else's award
e) it's just shit

Rant over - but there's nothing I can do is there?

They do get paid for there time or time off classes.

You wouldn't have expected my kids to have done it but they did. I don't think I told people about it while they were doing it.

DofE has lost it's way. I was a Leader/Supervisor/Assessor for over 10 years, it's all marketed to the kids as "it'll look great on your CV". Mum & Dad take this on board & pay for them to do it - and the kids become customers.

It's very hard for the DofE Administrators to tell paying customers that they can't have what they've paid for - especially when it's related to Expeditions.

I've had nasty, lazy, rude & incompetent kids in my teams where they're not interested & are just blagging it.

Dare to try to put a "Fail" in & it all becomes "political"...

The administrators don't want to upset the paying customers (parents), mitigations are made & the little angels pass the Expedition sections anyway...

That's why, as an Employer, I don't take a lot of notice of DofE on a CV - I'll ask some probing questions, but the whole DofE thing is diminished generally...

Surely though, NotReally, as well as "nasty, lazy, rude & incompetent kids" you'll also have seen some polite, amazing, dedicated kids who completed the expedition properly and fairly.

How can you, as an ex-leader, tar all the students with the same brush?

^^ genuine question, not meant to be snarky.

I didn't say it was "all". I had a lot more "good" kids than I did "bad" and enjoyed myself generally, but I didn't like the direction it was going (rubber stamping it) so chose to move on.

I think the whole "looking good on your CV" backfires. Is it a signal of someone who wants to do more than the bare minimum - someone who is willing to put themselves out there, to explore, to learn, to try something new, to help in a selfless way?
When you start off from the position of CV building it is absolutely going to go downhill from there. The problem here is that it was ever a thing that people should be impressed by - it should be a thing you impress yourself with - not other people - it should never have been a thing for a CV.

Speaking with my assessor hat on, it can be challenging to set an appropriate level that you're willing to sign off on. It's not a GCSE or A level with a set standard.

On my skills courses, some of the kids produce outstandingly good tasks, most have a decent stab at it and some struggle to meet even the bare minimum. That said, some of the courses are quite technical/mathsy and students have different capabilities. And the standard of a 17 year old is different from a 13 year old.

There's a lot of different variables and there will also be students who fully embrace the award and push themselves. And those that do the least possible. That's life and you have to accept it's meant to be inclusive.

Exactly - you ask the kids why they're there & it's very often "Mum/Dad said it'll look good on my CV" - that's not what it's about.

Don't get me wrong, many of them learn lots about themselves & come out of it having benefited - I just think the marketing by DofE is missing the mark & making it a lot more commercial....

I lost all respect for this award when I saw my step children and others boasting about "cheating" and getting people to lie and sign off things they hadn't done. Such a shame as it devalues it for those who do try and who do make valid and large efforts.

I think people cheating devalues it only if you do it for the glory of the reward and you expect to be applauded and congratulated for the achievement. It's personal development - it's personal goals that shouldn't be set to compete with others. Real progress and achievement comes from within - making yourself proud and feeling good in yourself at what you have done.
Looking to others for validation is the path to frustration and misery. In the past I, as I'm sure many of you have, been moved to tears by things my kids have achieved that I know have been a real personal struggle for them - not something that they got medals for or stood up on a stage and got applause for but something that they had to reach deep down within, face a huge fear and conquer it - no one will know what they did and how important it was but them (and me of course) and that is what I try to teach them...the medals and certificates are fluff.

I can sort of agree with your point about doing it for yourself, not for the medal or whatever - but I do think that once someone has achieved something, they should be able to list it on their CV/UCAS or whatever without it having been devalued. If you achieve it honestly, but have only done it for UCAS, it is still showing dedication and commitment, even though you didn’t really fancy it for its own sake.

that said, I know several who are getting d of e by using stuff (well twisting it) to just get it within the criteria.

and some have more access to the qualification than others

so overall, it is definitely devalued.

I think we can tell from some of the responses that some posters would have no qualms about their child/children cheating to accomplish something.
Sad state of the world that we live in.

@drinkeatsmile

I absolutely agree that the value doesn't come from the medal or award or recognition from others.

It does come from knowing you put in the hard work and you earnt that reward.

Cheating devalues it for everyone, because even though you know you haven't cheated, others don't know and may wrongly assume you have. Why should anyone have to defend that.

I recruit grads I've never valued the DoE on a CV (I don't devalue it either)- someone can talk to me about what they have done whilst doing it during an interview but the fact that it was gained during DoE will be irrelevant, as irrelevant as a grade 7 in music or captain of a rugby team or enjoy skiing in France - nice for you...happy for you if you enjoy it - and if you got something out of it, even better but I need to hear how it has made you better at doing the job I interview for and funnily enough - it has never come up - none of it!

You can't compare Grade 7 in music with enjoying skiing in France!

Grade 7 in music demonstrates diligence, tenacity, focus, attention to detail, practice and putting in effort alongside the usual day job/study. Can't think of any decent job that wouldn't require some or all of those skills. That's why Grades 6 upwards in music can be relevant to university entry in terms of points.

I'm afraid I can and I do compare skiing and Grade 7 in music - both require a healthy bank balance and I disregard both - levelling the playing field is one of our objectives in searching for good employees. Interestingly the University of Cambridge does not award points for Grade 7 in music or DoE for the same reason.

They want to see self starting enthusiasm for the subject you are applying for and evidence of super curricular stuff (which can be accessed for free). That’s what we were told anyway. Otherwise it’s very unfair - only the pushy upper middle class kids who bashed away at the violin would ever get university places!

Our recruitment is already skewed toward middle-class kids - it's that kind of industry - we do what we can to ensure kids from less well-off backgrounds are not kicked out in the first sift due to the lack of middle-class hobbies. It's not the only thing we do though, we fund travel to interviews and provide salary loans if needed, to help kids get set up for the first few months.

I think the cost can vary, my son did his DofE through army cadets and it didn't cost me a penny, GS has done it through school and it has cost although the biggest cost was his residential and he could have done a free or very low cost one but as he hadn't had a holiday and had a difficult time (hence living with GPs) we were happy to fund it.

Having said that my son did it some years ago so I don't know if cadets are quite so generous now.

What are these points that you think Cambridge award?

Music exams attract UCAS tariff points, and each grade can be compared to other qualifications.
DofE does not attract UCAS tariff points as it is a personal development programme with each participant choosing what they do and determining the level of development they get out of it through their efforts.

I think you may have got things muddled up. Points are not awarded by the universities. They are recognised by the universities.

I wasn't talking about actual UCAS points - I was talking about how you score someone going through a process. Sure if someone wants to talk about something they did for their DofE award that is relevant to the position, they will get scored on how they talk about it and what they did but we will not award recruitment points for a DofE award and given what the Cambridge Admissions Tutor was at pains to point out at this public lecture we were invited to Cambridge won't either.
Don't be too alarmed other employers and universities are probably tripping over themselves to employ kids with a DoE award and Grade 7 in music. We are not - I hear med schools have stopped being impressed by stuff like this too but I'm just going by friends whose kids got in for that info.

I was not talking about UCAS points I was talking about the points you award a candidate when assessing them across a range of skills and attributes, the candidates with the highest points will get the place.

...and the skiing qualifications awarded by BASI do attract UCAS points.

In any event the thing D of E does is increase confidence and self reliance as well as giving candidates something to talk about.