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Original poster

To tell SIL ex can't stop her from taking DC on holiday?

50 replies

TiredButDancing · 03/05/2023 15:07

ExBIL was an emotionally abusive and controlling twat who SIL has finally managed to (mostly) get rid of. Ups and downs. He likes to threaten her and she hasn't quite mastered the art of realising that most of his threats are stupid and/or empty.

We have a plan is to go away in the summer with extended family. He is absolutely furious as one of his many weird issues is a complete inability to understand why he is not included in such activities any more. As a result, he has said he "won't allow" it and she can't take the DC out of the country without his permission.

I know for a fact that she doesn't need his active permission - I travel with the DC all the time and even with different surnames, it's never been a problem in Europe (I bring their birth certificates but only ever asked once).

But, in the unlikely event that he gets his ass into gear, can he contact passport control and put a flag on her leaving the country with their DC? I don't actually think he WOULD (he's lazy and pathetic), but can he?

OP posts:
BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 03/05/2023 15:11

If he has said no, and has parental responsibility, then if she does it would be abduction. OK so no one might even ask at the airport, but it doesn't change that she would be doing something she isn't actually allowed to do.

Also, what sort of precedence would that set for him? He could fuck off to Vanuatu with dd without so much as a glance as your SIL.

OhmygodDont · 03/05/2023 15:12

Of course he can stop her. One phone is all that’s required. If she takes them without consent that’s a whole load of trouble and she would be flagged constantly every time after.

better off getting a court order than allows her to take holidays providing she gives notice

Original poster
TiredButDancing · 03/05/2023 15:15

If it's just one phone call, why is it that on here MNers who are worried about their ex's abducting their DC are told to get passports etc because it's the only recourse they have? Why can't they just "make one phone call"?

OP posts:
DrMarciaFieldstone · 03/05/2023 15:15

She does need his permission. Those are the rules.

She can speak to a lawyer if she feels he’s being unnecessary obstructive.

elm26 · 03/05/2023 15:18

TiredButDancing · 03/05/2023 15:15

If it's just one phone call, why is it that on here MNers who are worried about their ex's abducting their DC are told to get passports etc because it's the only recourse they have? Why can't they just "make one phone call"?

Imagine if the message didn't get through, there was a delay, a problem with the communication line, somebody who isn't checking properly at check in or boarding.

He can stop her, I hope he doesn't and he sounds like a tosser but he can.

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 03/05/2023 15:18

TiredButDancing · 03/05/2023 15:15

If it's just one phone call, why is it that on here MNers who are worried about their ex's abducting their DC are told to get passports etc because it's the only recourse they have? Why can't they just "make one phone call"?

Er...what?

Get the passport is to stop it even getting to the point of abduction. If you cannot trust your ex not to flee the country with your child, it would be adviseable to keep hold of the passport.

Something the ex in this situation may choose to do if he has concerns the mother isn't going to listen to him saying no.

She needs to go to court to get an agreement in place for holidaying abroad.

dementedpixie · 03/05/2023 15:20

Strictly speaking she needs permission from him if he's on the birth certificate

She could get a child arrangement order that says the child lives with her and then she could take them abroad without permission for up to 28 days.

CoozudBoyuPuak · 03/05/2023 15:21

It would be better to get a court order in advance to say that holidays abroad are allowed. The court will need to be satisfied that there's no abduction risk (eg does sil have family ties to another country that she might try to relocate to and build a new life). If she doesn't do this then there are anti-child-abduction procedures that he could theoretically use at the last minute to vindictively destroy the holiday. But with good planning it will all be ok.

JustFrustrated · 03/05/2023 15:24

Does she have a CAO? If so, no she doesn't need his permission.

If she doesn't have a CAO then she does. However if he's refusing on no basis a quick court visit will resolve that

www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

Original poster
TiredButDancing · 03/05/2023 15:31

Okay, thanks all. I am a bit surprised because of all the threads where the risk of abduction seems to be huge and everyone thinks the mother has no options, but okay, I see the point here.

To be honest, he's so lazy that the chances of him actually attempting to stop her by tracking down information on how to stop her, contacting authorities etc are extraordinarily low but I'll send her some information so she can think about what she wants to do.

I guess there's an assumption that the parent with PR who is traveling with the child does have permission, which is certainly why no one has ever stopped me. I have been asked a couple of times why my DC have a different name but they don't even usually want to see the birth certificate I then offer up.

OP posts:
Original poster
TiredButDancing · 03/05/2023 15:32

elm26 · 03/05/2023 15:18

Imagine if the message didn't get through, there was a delay, a problem with the communication line, somebody who isn't checking properly at check in or boarding.

He can stop her, I hope he doesn't and he sounds like a tosser but he can.

Show quote history

"Tosser" is a very polite term. He's a grade A wanker who we all hate! Grin

OP posts:
PassMeTheRedbull · 03/05/2023 15:38

I'd tell her to call his bluff and tell him that's fine, she won't take the children but they can stay with him for the week whilst she goes herself, I'd imagine this will be a control attempt against her and not because he has concerns about the children going away, if he's that lazy he will not want to have then while she is away on holiday!

Original poster
TiredButDancing · 03/05/2023 15:43

@PassMeTheRedbull He doesn't acutally have anywhere appropriate for the DC to stay. That's another thread.

But yy to calling his bluff. She hasn't done it as yet. But has made some progress in that the last time he threatened her with something to do with the DC, rather than going into a tailspin and screaming and fighting with him (he loves an emotional reaction - it's all fuel to him AND he thinks it proves that she's mentally unstable), she just calmly assumed he would let her down and went ahead and found an alternative. Completely took the wind out of his sail.

OP posts:
broadbeanquiche · 03/05/2023 15:45

Don't encourage her to try it

WheelsUp · 03/05/2023 15:47

SIL should get a child arrangement order so that she will be given permission to take the kids abroad for up to 28 days without his permission. Cost is £210 plus a mediation session which can be done with SIL and ex in separate rooms if he's a dick. (Shuttle mediation) Ex could stop her from going abroad(if they don't have an order)so it would be a good idea to get one so that she doesn't have to ask for permission from him.

The posts where people are worried about abduction risk often involves dad being from another country. Courts see children seeing paternal extended family as a good thing so would grant permission. It's also hard to argue that the other parent shouldn't be allowed to take the child on holiday.

BettyBooper · 03/05/2023 15:59

My dad got stopped at the airport taking my two DSis out of the country. Their mum has died so they didn't have the written permission on request. They had to get a neighbour to find her death certificate and email it to them. They missed the flight and had to get new ones. It happens.

Original poster
TiredButDancing · 03/05/2023 16:08

I looked up the child arrangement order. I don't see that working out. The status quo is that she has the DC 100% of the time and pays 100% of their bills and he drops in and out more or less as he pleases and picks them up from school once a week.

However, any process that required him to formally state this is what is happening/will happen would activate him to fight. So she would go to all the effort of making what is already happening official, only for him to use that as an opportunity to piggyback off her efforts and then create more difficulty.

She'd win in the end, of course, but it would be torture.

I'll discuss it with her.

OP posts:
BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 03/05/2023 16:11

Does she have a CMS claim in?

CornishGem1975 · 03/05/2023 16:12

My friend had to take her abusive ex to court to take her kids out of the country because he refused to agree. It cost her hundreds and on the day of the court case, he agreed before it got into court. Arse.

If no court order, she'll have to take him to court to get this sorted - or risk the child abduction thing. Which is bonkers, but that's the law.

Im99912 · 03/05/2023 16:12

Why is she even telling him she is going on holiday when she knows what he is like

if he doesn’t see them that much then I wouldn’t even bother letting him know I was going away .

keep it quiet from the kids till the last moment and then go on holiday

leave phone at home so if he rings he get the normal ring tone and not an abroad tone with a message to say call back later

But that’s just me

Im99912 · 03/05/2023 16:14

Ok it’s probably not good advice
but I wouldn’t be engaging with a twat like him 😂

DogInATent · 03/05/2023 16:15

I know for a fact...
... but can he?
I think your SIL needs reliable, knowledgeable advice. Don't tell her something's definitely the case when you don't know.

Original poster
TiredButDancing · 03/05/2023 16:17

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz Nope. And for the 10 minutes he claimed to have got a better job with more money and was therefore going to start giving her money, she didn't feel she should/could take it.

@Im99912 because he drops in when he feels like it and she hates it but allows it.

Honestly, it's a freaking nightmare and a totally ridiculous dynamic, and I think it's going to take YEARS for her to fully understand how completely F*ed up the entire situation is. If I think too much about it, my head starts to explode so I try to stick with specific, immediate issues.

OP posts:
itwasntmetho · 03/05/2023 16:21

Im99912 · 03/05/2023 16:12

Why is she even telling him she is going on holiday when she knows what he is like

if he doesn’t see them that much then I wouldn’t even bother letting him know I was going away .

keep it quiet from the kids till the last moment and then go on holiday

leave phone at home so if he rings he get the normal ring tone and not an abroad tone with a message to say call back later

But that’s just me

I'd do that too.

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