To tell SIL ex can't stop her from taking DC on holiday?

[TiredButDancing]

ExBIL was an emotionally abusive and controlling twat who SIL has finally managed to (mostly) get rid of. Ups and downs. He likes to threaten her and she hasn't quite mastered the art of realising that most of his threats are stupid and/or empty.

We have a plan is to go away in the summer with extended family. He is absolutely furious as one of his many weird issues is a complete inability to understand why he is not included in such activities any more. As a result, he has said he "won't allow" it and she can't take the DC out of the country without his permission.

I know for a fact that she doesn't need his active permission - I travel with the DC all the time and even with different surnames, it's never been a problem in Europe (I bring their birth certificates but only ever asked once).

But, in the unlikely event that he gets his ass into gear, can he contact passport control and put a flag on her leaving the country with their DC? I don't actually think he WOULD (he's lazy and pathetic), but can he?

I know for a fact that she doesn't need his active permission

Incorrect. Yes, she does. Stop making stuff up and calling them facts.

because he drops in when he feels like it and she hates it but allows it.

There's surely no formal agreement that this is the terms of his contact though is there? Has she committed to saying she will always be available it his whim?

which is certainly why no one has ever stopped me.

There you go again, making stuff up and pretending it’s fact. You’ve not been stopped because you’ve been lucky.

If your children have another parent with parental responsibility then you probably want to start carrying some proof of permission when you travel with the alone. So far you have lucky but that might not continue.

My word, this is why I came on here - to find out what was needed.

And you're right, it might not be 100% right but the fact is that I have travelled with my DC alone on multiple occasions and have never been asked for proof that DH gave them permission to travel. Hence my "I know for a fact they don't need active permission." A more accurate phrase might have been, "I know from experience that you don't need active permission".

Either way, I asked the question because I wasn't sure. And now I've had answers.

Everyone with parental responsibility needs to give permission. She needs his and he needs hers. If he won't give it she can go to court for a specific issues order.

Only other way around it would be if they had a CAO that specified kids lived with her. Then I believe she could take them without needing permission if it didn't disrupt contact time and was less than 30 days.

He was controlling while they were together and it doesn't just magically stop because she's managed to figure out at least some of how shit he was and take steps to move on.

I wish it was as simple as saying that she hasn't committed to anything so why does she allow it, but it's not.

If I was her I would just lie and say the holiday is a few weeks after and to keep asking him to act like that's the dates etc.

Then with the Holiday earlier just go ahead will be too late for him to say no then because they will already be away.

@TiredButDancing
This may not be relevant so apologies if it isn't but just a word of caution......he may well be a grade A wanker and a lazy c**t but please be careful how you speak about him around his kids. A friend of mine had a similar ex and her family always spoke badly about her ex.....guess what.....the kids came to dislike her family and it actually drove them closer to her ex......he now has primary custody and they visit her every other week.

What ever your feelings are towards him, he is their father so assuming they have a decent relationship be careful how you speak about him.

So if you’re not sure then stop stating things as facts.

Nope, it's not relevant for about a million reasons but I won't bore you with them.

@SunnySaturdayMorning Okaaaay then. You really are ridiculously invested in whether I've used 100% accurate wording in every single post on a random internet forum.

I'll reiterate - this thread has been helpful. I'll pass the updated info, that I got on this thread, to SIL.

Can't she just go and not tell him ?
Overseas ring tone irrelevant if they're already there.
I'd say the same if it was the other way round btw.

OP, I had the same issue with my ex. He is still (a decade later) outraged that I dared leave him, and has refused to allow me to take DS out of the country. But he is equally lazy and inept as you ex-bil.

I wrote a letter to myself, forged ex's signature and posted it to my address and used it the only time I've been stopped in 9 years, oddly, coming back into the UK. How are immigration going to know whether it's real? They don't have a database of everyone's signatures. It's a ridiculous law and completely unenforceable so tell your dsil to stop worrying, and go and enjoy herself.

Don't tell the dcs they are going until actually at the airport, then ex-bil will not have the chance to be so spiteful.

@MintJulia It's so weird this one isn't it - the only times I've even been asked (but not required to show any proof of a) parental responsibility or b) DH permission) it's always been on the way back INTO the UK, with all of us travelling on British passports. I'm always a bit bemused by that - even if I shouldn't have been travelling, surely the fact that we're clearly RETURNING, be a good thing? You'd think it was passport control on the way out who'd be more careful about this.

And incidentally, the school, when taking DS skiing, didn't ask for ex's permission, only mine. So schools clearly aren't bothered by such a ridiculous law either.

While I understand it's the law, I've never been stopped with any of my children and hadn't thought to get a letter from ex (we get on fine so no issues getting one) so out of curiosity, what happens when the NRP has just buggered off and doesn't see the kids? How can you prove anything if they're not around and there aren't any contact details?

OP probably best for your SIL to have an initial chat with a lawyer and see where to go from there. It's a pain but there is not a chance in hell she wouldn't be given permission to take her children on holiday because their Dad is acting like a spoilt brat. It's about the best interests of the child and experiencing holidays are part of that. What a horrible man trying to prevent his own children having a lovely time with their family while he can't even be bothered with them and doesn't pay towards them!

She needs to stop telling him stuff. Co parenting is best for everyone but she won;t be able to do it with him so it's best for the kids that she doesn't give him too much information in case he keeps trying to spoil things for them solely to upset her.

I think there's the practical reality - which is that in 99.9% of cases, no one cares as long as the mother is clearly the mother (and I suspect it is not quite the same for a man travelling alone with children) even though technically the law requires "permission". As per my experience and that of @MintJulia @Aaaaandbreathe etc.

I also realised that on the gov.uk website, it doesn't specify what "permission" looks like - ie there's no minimum requirement of a written note or whatever. So I suspect that in the unlikely event someone is asked, a call to the child's father who then says, "yeah, sure, she took the kids to see her mum" would be fine.

But, there is also a risk that a spiteful ex could proactively call border control and actively revoke "permission" which could, theoretically, cause a problem.

In order to be effective practically, the ex needs to go to court and get a prohibited steps order or similar, in which case the mother would be made aware of that decision.

But since my ex is too tight-fisted to pay a court fee, I know that is never going to happen. 😊 It's probably why the only question ever asked in any of the school forms, is if the child is subject to any court orders.

He could also say no permission to travel if he was called while your DSis was at the border.

For the avoidance of doubt, why can't your DSis go for a specific issue order to gain court permission to take her DC on holiday and at the same time go for a CAO which states the DC live with her?
The the issue will never arise again and her ex will not have this control over her.

I had to do this as my ex was stopping me take our DS on a holiday for his birthday. Strangely, the idiot failed to turn up to court to explain his reasoning in front of the judges. Controlling bastards do not like having to explain publicly the reason why they are controlling you. The family courts see this all the time.
Now I can take both of my DC on holiday with no way that my ex can stop the holiday. I inform him of destination/hotel and times. That's it.

The CAO is a good idea but I suspect it would open a can of worms SIL is not willing to open. I'm going to pass the info along though - if nothing else, it will help her as she continues to figure out how to navigate life with this parasite still in it.

@marmite How would immigration know ex-bil's phone number?

Do you mean that she's not ready to make him have contact away from her house yet ? Technically a CAO is a list of times that she will make the kids available for contact with her ex but if she's not going to enforce that boundary, BIL may still disrupt holidays by calling the airport.

There was a thread on here where someone was stopped at passport control because the ex had made a phone call about the passports being lost iirc. They took the family to a room for questioning before working out the truth about the ex trying to sabotage the holiday.

I mean that she's not ready to down the formal route because he will kick-off and find ways to make it hell.

Also, even if she can navigate all that... dh and I think she's terrified of anything like this because either it will be formalised that he's shit or (and?) she will have to confront that he is shit when he doesn't stick to it.

She would need to make an application to the court and get the court to over rule him. They will, he is being unreasonable.